Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary

[PhoSita]

  In comparison to other max players, it is hard to say he is worth the money.

Again we have a problem with the terms we're using here.

What other "max players"?  Do you mean players making $25-30 million a year?  Or do you mean players beyond their rookie contract being paid at the maximum annual value allowed for their level of experience?

There are a lot of players in the league making over $20 million per year who received the highest possible annual value at the time they signed their contract, or close to it.  In other words, they're making max based on what the CBA allowed.  Horford is more valuable than a lot of those guys.


Horford is not as valuable as LeBron or Curry, sure.  He's not better than Dame Lillard, or Chris Paul, or James Harden, or Kevin Durant.

But those aren't the only guys making $25-30 million.

Is he more valuable than Paul Millsap? ($30.8 million)   ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Blake Griffin? ($29.5 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Mike Conley? ($28.5 million) ... Yes, I say, even w/out injuries.

Is he more valuable than Carmelo Anthony? ($27.5 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Andrew Wiggins? ($25.3 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Jrue Holiday? ($24.9 million) ... Arguable, but I say yes.

Is he more valuable than Otto Porter? ($24.8 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than C.J. McCollum? ($24 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Hassan Whiteside? ($23.8 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Bradley Beal? ($23.8 million) ... Arguable, but I think I'd say yes.

Is he more valuable than Andre Drummond? ($23.8 million) ... I think I'd rather have Horford.

Is he more valuable than Dwight Howard? ($23.5 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Chandler Parsons? ($23 million) ... Yes.

Is he more valuable than Harrison Barnes? ($23 million) ... Yes.



Now, about many of the above players you could say, "Well those are bad contracts."  That's true.  You could also argue "Many of those players are paid based upon age and potential."  That's true as well.

But that's also just how the free agent market works in the NBA.  Age, years of experience, how much a player is allowed to be paid under the CBA, what other players are available in that free agent period, etc are all taken into account.

Horford is worth as much or more than many other players who make a similar annual salary in the NBA.  You may not feel that most of the above players should have gotten close to max money, but the reality of the league is that any above average free agent is going to get a big deal, and if you're a team with cap space that wants to sign a good player, you're probably going to have to offer the maximum annual value allowed under the CBA.

If your argument is opportunity cost, i.e. the Celts could have signed somebody else who is more valuable, or they could have signed multiple guys for the same total amount of money, I just fundamentally disagree with you.

But the bottom line is that somebody was going to offer Al Horford a max deal and his performance over the course of his deal so far is absolutely commensurate with that salary, i.e. he is a top player on a quality team, provides a lot of leadership and intangibles on and off the court, and has helped to attract other good players to join the team.

[Tr1boy]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

[Ogaju]

The regular season is for scrubs....Al is earning his money on the big stage.

[PhoSita]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

[Tr1boy]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

For a 30 million dollar player...yes it is about scoring and or carrying team to wins. And if the other max guy is struggling or focused on, to be the next guy to score and seal wins

You dont pay Draymond Green 30 million to be the jack of all trades (and a real good one he is)

You dont pay Dennis Rodman 30 million a year for the things he did

[Roy H.]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

Right. Horford was a top-10 defender all season, and an excellent floor-spacer passer. He’s integral on both ends.

[Donoghus]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

For a 30 million dollar player...yes it is about scoring and or carrying team to wins. And if the other max guy is struggling or focused on, to be the next guy to score and seal wins

You dont pay Draymond Green 30 million to be the jack of all trades (and a real good one he is)

You dont pay Dennis Rodman 30 million a year for the things he did

Just out of curiosity, who would've you spent the money on in the summer of '16 rather than Horford?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

For a 30 million dollar player...yes it is about scoring and or carrying team to wins. And if the other max guy is struggling or focused on, to be the next guy to score and seal wins

You dont pay Draymond Green 30 million to be the jack of all trades (and a real good one he is)

You dont pay Dennis Rodman 30 million a year for the things he did

Draymond Green did get a max contract, but it was all he was able to get at the end of the rookie deal. He will get a max again after this contract and it will be higher.

[Tr1boy]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

For a 30 million dollar player...yes it is about scoring and or carrying team to wins. And if the other max guy is struggling or focused on, to be the next guy to score and seal wins

You dont pay Draymond Green 30 million to be the jack of all trades (and a real good one he is)

You dont pay Dennis Rodman 30 million a year for the things he did

Draymond Green did get a max contract, but it was all he was able to get at the end of the rookie deal. He will get a max again after this contract and it will be higher.

Wasnt ge upset or held out that he didnt receive more?

You really think he will be able to obtain 30 million per season out in the market?

[Tr1boy]

If Horford plays this good in the the 2nd round....I will say

Why arent you playing like this more often? And earning all of 30 million per season

There is nothing to admit of error for posting this thread...he was pure mediocre for a good chunk of the season. Especially when Kyrie was out (I mean even with Kyrie at times...its like when are you going to try, hit some big shots vs relying on others to score)

I would say you need to expand your definition of what it means to play well, because Al was very good for the vast majority of the regular season, as well.  It's not all about points and taking shots.

Right. Horford was a top-10 defender all season, and an excellent floor-spacer passer. He’s integral on both ends.

Are these things worth 30 million a season ?

Right now he is playing like a max guy

I guess I have been too spoiled by KGs excellence in the regular season, playoffs ...didnt matter

I know AL could have done more...we are seeing it right before our eyes.

[Vermont Green]

  In comparison to other max players, it is hard to say he is worth the money.

Now, about many of the above players you could say, "Well those are bad contracts."  That's true.  You could also argue "Many of those players are paid based upon age and potential."  That's true as well.

I guess you didn't read my whole post.  I compared Horford to other bigs purely on ability, not relative to contract.  My point is that in the NBA, you have to be very careful who you dole out max contracts to or you will be stuck at mediocre.  Horford in my opinion is not a great max contract (thus my point of not worth the money).  Your point that there are many other not great max or near max contracts is correct and your reasoning that it is just the landscape of the NBA is also correct but that does not mitigate the opportunity cost of giving a max contract to one of these types.

I think Danny made a calculated risk.  He probably would have preferred to give the max contract to someone better than Horford (such as Durant) but he signed him knowing that he would then have to work around that contact in the future.  The Horford contract has not been a killer like some really bad contracts can be but it is an impact nonetheless.  Horford has been an effective albeit expensive bridge while our young players develop and we have acquired more talent but if you had a team of say 3 players like Horford on max contracts (add Conley and Milsap for example), you would not be that good, certainly not contending for a title.  And you would not have the salary flexibility to do much to get better.

[Tr1boy]

  In comparison to other max players, it is hard to say he is worth the money.

Now, about many of the above players you could say, "Well those are bad contracts."  That's true.  You could also argue "Many of those players are paid based upon age and potential."  That's true as well.

I guess you didn't read my whole post.  I compared Horford to other bigs purely on ability, not relative to contract.  My point is that in the NBA, you have to be very careful who you dole out max contracts to or you will be stuck at mediocre.  Horford in my opinion is not a great max contract (thus my point of not worth the money).  Your point that there are many other not great max or near max contracts is correct and your reasoning that it is just the landscape of the NBA is also correct but that does not mitigate the opportunity cost of giving a max contract to one of these types.

I think Danny made a calculated risk.  He probably would have preferred to give the max contract to someone better than Horford (such as Durant) but he signed him knowing that he would then have to work around that contact in the future.  The Horford contract has not been a killer like some really bad contracts can be but it is an impact nonetheless.  Horford has been an effective albeit expensive bridge while our young players develop and we have acquired more talent but if you had a team of say 3 players like Horford on max contracts (add Conley and Milsap for example), you would not be that good, certainly not contending for a title.  And you would not have the salary flexibility to do much to get better.

Exactly

[blink]

So Triboy - As was asked above, and you never answered:  Who would you have given that money to in 2016?  We all wanted Durant, we lost out on him.  Who else was better than Al to spend the money on? 

[keevsnick]

I think its fair to say broadly that hes worth 30 million, the problem is he isnt a huge surplus value. Guys like Lebron, Curry, Davis are worth 50 million+. It becomes hard to reach the absolute highest level when one of your max slows isnt a sur plus value guy. Lucky I dont think its a huge problem for us since our young guys provide a lot of sur plus value, and by the time we resign them Horford contract will expire.

[PhoSita]

but if you had a team of say 3 players like Horford on max contracts (add Conley and Milsap for example), you would not be that good, certainly not contending for a title.

And yet not a single person has suggested that the team should do anything like that, so I don't see your point at all.

Everybody quibbling with Horford's contract value keeps moving the goalposts.

So now it's not enough for a guy to clearly be a good value to the team, he has to be good enough that if you gave that kind of money to 3 guys like him, the team would contend for a title? 

I don't follow at all.