Author Topic: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary  (Read 59055 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #165 on: April 18, 2018, 01:32:22 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
I think the problem people have is that Horford is paid about what he's worth, while some superstars in the league are vastly underpaid as MAX players. Without a MAX on players salary, someone like Lebron or Durant would be making $80-90 Million a year. These type of max players skew the fan perspective of what a MAX player really is.
Horford has the 12th highest salary in the league. He isn't the 12th best player and isn't all that close to that.

Its close once you ignore the players on rookie deals. Counting stats isnt everything, and Horford is such a rarity. You need guys who will enable other players to do what they do best, Horford is that guy. You cannot put 5 guys who all need the ball in their hands at the same time.

Between defending Cavs, Sixers and continued downplaying of Celtics players and staff, I have serious doubts you are a legit Celtics fan.

I don't really get what people want Horford to do to be better.


no need to worry....just more low iq fans about flash , and not about substance.     not what you do, but how you look doing it is the dumbed down America theme.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #166 on: April 18, 2018, 01:32:43 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
It's the raw counting numbers. That's all that matter to some people. If he was garbage and the Celtics were losing games but he was putting up big point and rebounding totals these same people would love him, is my guess.
What people want is for Horford to be able the carry the team on his back. I expect this from every player that signs at the dotted line for the maximum dollars available. Horford can't do that. He's a nice complementary piece that makes the team better and can dominate in short stretches. But he can't be the man all game, every game. Which is fine, and doesn't make him a bum. Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

Has nothing to do with the numbers -- although of course if you are able to carry the team on your back, that usually results in "raw counting numbers".
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #167 on: April 18, 2018, 01:33:32 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2757
  • Tommy Points: 291
  • Always offline from 9pm till 3am
If Horford keeps up this play then I will voluntarily put my head under the guillotine.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #168 on: April 18, 2018, 01:38:28 PM »

Offline konkmv

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1518
  • Tommy Points: 104
Horford is an unbelievable player... the only issue is if his keeps his playing form when Hayward and irwing reach their prime... time ruthless for everyone...

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #169 on: April 18, 2018, 01:43:48 PM »

Offline Atzar

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9136
  • Tommy Points: 1649
The fact that Horford is the twelfth-highest paid player has much more to do with timing than player impact.  He signed as a player with nine years of experience, enabling him to take 30% of the cap in a year with a significant cap increase. 

A player's salary ranking is not a good reflection of his ranking as a player.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #170 on: April 18, 2018, 02:24:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
It's the raw counting numbers. That's all that matter to some people. If he was garbage and the Celtics were losing games but he was putting up big point and rebounding totals these same people would love him, is my guess.
What people want is for Horford to be able the carry the team on his back. I expect this from every player that signs at the dotted line for the maximum dollars available. Horford can't do that. He's a nice complementary piece that makes the team better and can dominate in short stretches. But he can't be the man all game, every game. Which is fine, and doesn't make him a bum. Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

Has nothing to do with the numbers -- although of course if you are able to carry the team on your back, that usually results in "raw counting numbers".
This is where I'm at on Horford.  He is a very good player, but he isn't the 2nd best player on his team and you can't realistically pay 3 players max dollars (even if 1 of the others is still on a 25% max from a much lower cap). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #171 on: April 18, 2018, 02:25:37 PM »

Online Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11228
  • Tommy Points: 860
The fact that Horford is the twelfth-highest paid player has much more to do with timing than player impact.  He signed as a player with nine years of experience, enabling him to take 30% of the cap in a year with a significant cap increase. 

A player's salary ranking is not a good reflection of his ranking as a player.

This really should be a two part debate.  The first part is how good is he relative to the best players in the league and/or how important to the Celtics is he.  The second part of the debate could be whether he was a good signing as a max player (is he worth the money).

I think the second part of the debate is pretty easy.  In comparison to other max players, it is hard to say he is worth the money.

Now the question of how good is he is a very hard one to answer.  No doubt he does things that don't show up in the box score and what does show up in the box score doesn't jump off the page.  Is he a top 10 big?  I think so.  Would your rather have Horford or Cousins, Jordan, Gasol or Drummond?  Throw out Cousins (hard to evaluate due to head case) and I don't think Jordan or Gasol or Drummond are any better.  How about Gobert or Jokic or Whiteside?  No thanks (at least in terms of current production, not future potential).  Towns, Davis, or Embiid, sure, so is Horford a top 5 Center/Big?  Top 5 bigs sign for big money.  That is the market.

I would prefer that we had someone better than Horford for max money (cough cough Durant) but in reality, we didn't have all that many options.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #172 on: April 18, 2018, 02:32:24 PM »

Offline positivitize

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2565
  • Tommy Points: 614
  • Puns of steel
This thread is absurd, especially a day after Horford lead us to blow out the Bucks.


Horford is worth EVERY PENNY, simply because it took every penny to get him here. Without Horford there is no Kyrie, no Hayward. Probably no Morris or Baynes too. Just by the chain reaction Horford set off by signing here, he's worth it, even if he played worse than Abdel Nader.

Then he's also a top defensive guy, a top offensive guy, and the ultimate pro around our team of young players who are learning to become pros. Out of everyone on the team, Al is by far the most important. He might not make the most counting stats, but he makes this team run. He makes Steven's vision possible. He might not be transcendent at one aspect of the game, but he is masterful at almost all of them. Hell. He even added a 3-point game and now shoots a better percentage than Curry.

This thread is rediculous.
My biases, in order of fervor:
Pro:
Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Kemba, Grant Williams, Sleepy Williams, Edwards!

Anti:
Kanter, Semi, Theis, Poierier

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #173 on: April 18, 2018, 02:34:42 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
This thread is absurd, especially a day after Horford lead us to blow out the Bucks.


Horford is worth EVERY PENNY, simply because it took every penny to get him here. Without Horford there is no Kyrie, no Hayward. Probably no Morris or Baynes too. Just by the chain reaction Horford set off by signing here, he's worth it, even if he played worse than Abdel Nader.

Then he's also a top defensive guy, a top offensive guy, and the ultimate pro around our team of young players who are learning to become pros. Out of everyone on the team, Al is by far the most important. He might not make the most counting stats, but he makes this team run. He makes Steven's vision possible. He might not be transcendent at one aspect of the game, but he is masterful at almost all of them. Hell. He even added a 3-point game and now shoots a better percentage than Curry.

This thread is rediculous.

TP.....it truely is SMH

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #174 on: April 18, 2018, 02:37:37 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
It's the raw counting numbers. That's all that matter to some people. If he was garbage and the Celtics were losing games but he was putting up big point and rebounding totals these same people would love him, is my guess.
What people want is for Horford to be able the carry the team on his back. I expect this from every player that signs at the dotted line for the maximum dollars available. Horford can't do that. He's a nice complementary piece that makes the team better and can dominate in short stretches. But he can't be the man all game, every game. Which is fine, and doesn't make him a bum. Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

Has nothing to do with the numbers -- although of course if you are able to carry the team on your back, that usually results in "raw counting numbers".
This is where I'm at on Horford.  He is a very good player, but he isn't the 2nd best player on his team and you can't realistically pay 3 players max dollars (even if 1 of the others is still on a 25% max from a much lower cap).
Its great to want him at a lower salary because you feel he isn't living up to his contract value, but when he was on the market, he was the 2nd best player available and if the Celtics weren't going to give him a max contract, someone else would have and he would not be here.

Since signing with Boston, the Celtics have won more than 50 games each year Horford has been here. He, Smart, Jaylen and Rozier are the only common denominators amongst those two very different teams. Horford provides much more than his box score. Without him, the Celtics most likeky don't win 50 games these past two seasons. The Celtics are simply a much better team with Horford.

So the Celtics are paying Horford about $8 million a year more than you think he is worth. Me, I am glad we are paying him that extra $8 million and he is here than trying to sign a few players that are paid at their level but cumulatively would have a much lesser effect on the win loss record of this team. Because that off season, that's all you would have gotten is much lesser impactful players.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #175 on: April 18, 2018, 02:39:47 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58555
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

 I think that we all wish this was possible. The problem is, it isn’t. So, you are left with the decision of paying him more than he is ideally worth, or missing out on him altogether.

Looking back at that free agent class, there are many, many worse outcomes than paying Horford what the market value was.



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #176 on: April 18, 2018, 02:45:25 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58555
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
This thread is absurd, especially a day after Horford lead us to blow out the Bucks.

To be fair, this thread was started several months ago. I disagreed with it at the time, and strongly cell, but the context was from a bad stretch of regular reason games.

Honestly, it kind of cracks me up any time the Rozier / Horford / Morris sucks threads pop up.  It’s kind of fun to see a player completely prove his critics wrong.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #177 on: April 18, 2018, 02:46:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
It's the raw counting numbers. That's all that matter to some people. If he was garbage and the Celtics were losing games but he was putting up big point and rebounding totals these same people would love him, is my guess.
What people want is for Horford to be able the carry the team on his back. I expect this from every player that signs at the dotted line for the maximum dollars available. Horford can't do that. He's a nice complementary piece that makes the team better and can dominate in short stretches. But he can't be the man all game, every game. Which is fine, and doesn't make him a bum. Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

Has nothing to do with the numbers -- although of course if you are able to carry the team on your back, that usually results in "raw counting numbers".

Have you watched the Celts recently?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:07:43 PM by PhoSita »
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #178 on: April 18, 2018, 02:53:54 PM »

Offline positivitize

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2565
  • Tommy Points: 614
  • Puns of steel
Quote
This thread is absurd, especially a day after Horford lead us to blow out the Bucks.

To be fair, this thread was started several months ago. I disagreed with it at the time, and strongly cell, but the context was from a bad stretch of regular reason games.

Honestly, it kind of cracks me up any time the Rozier / Horford / Morris sucks threads pop up.  It’s kind of fun to see a player completely prove his critics wrong.

Oh, I know. I'm a Smart-stan. I'm used to this kind of thread. Still hard to believe there's one on Horford though :D SMH
My biases, in order of fervor:
Pro:
Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Kemba, Grant Williams, Sleepy Williams, Edwards!

Anti:
Kanter, Semi, Theis, Poierier

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #179 on: April 18, 2018, 03:00:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Quote
Just a guy I'd like to have at about 75% of the max salary slot.

 I think that we all wish this was possible. The problem is, it isn’t. So, you are left with the decision of paying him more than he is ideally worth, or missing out on him altogether.

Looking back at that free agent class, there are many, many worse outcomes than paying Horford what the market value was.
Sure, but there could have been better outcomes as well.  For example, without Horford's salary, Ainge might have pulled the trigger on a Jimmy Butler, Paul George or Demarcus Cousins trade because he still would have had the cap room to acquire Hayward.  C's still might have been able to acquire Irving as well and might have still had Bradley.  So say, the C's acquired George (for Crowder, Smart, and the Boston 2018 1st - with the cap room they could fit George in for that - I didn't run the numbers maybe even KO could have kept in that scenario though that is probably unlikey) and then still made the Cleveland trade but using Bradley instead of Crowder, so Thomas, Bradley, BKN 1st (and maybe Zizic, maybe not) for Irving.  So Boston then strolls out Irving, Brown, Hayward, George, and Baynes (or whatever free agent is added at center) and still would have Tatum, Rozier, etc. on the bench. 

Of course maybe none of that happens without Horford.  No real way to know what might have been, but I believe overpaying for a free agent is never the right way to go because there are always consequences to those things down the line.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip