Author Topic: Government Shutdown  (Read 6036 times)

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Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2018, 03:55:15 PM »

Offline blackbird

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So, the government is going to be shut down over DACA?

It's called the  Schumer ShutDown.

Military won't get paid, Fed Workers won't get paid, and The Dems Turned down a continuation of the Child Healthcare Insurance Program that 9 million AMERICAN children rely on.
They are holding out for a non budgetary DACA program that has a deadline in March.

Schumer and the democrats are putting non citizens ahead of Americans, just for political reasons. They should be ashamed of themselves.   Even if you don't like Trump, you should be offended with the Democrats "non citizens first" political strategy.

87% of Americans support DACA. If you believe in republican democracy, you should be enraged that Congress has ignored the will of their constituents and not made it permanent law yet.

The Republicans are the ones who tied CHIP to the budget. If they want to vote on it as a stand alone bill, I'm sure the Democrats would pass it. Give me a break with your phony concern for those kids. If Republicans take CHIP off the table, are you still going blame Democrats when these kids don't get health care? Of course you will.

Regarding your "non-citizens first" comment, I'm old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan vetoed a budget because he didn't like the cuts to foreign aid. The government shutdown ended when Congress agreed to his demand to send more American money to the rebels in Nicaragua. My guess is that this event didn't make you stop worshipping Saint Ronnie even a little bit.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2018, 03:56:22 PM »

Online nickagneta

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I feel for the Dreamers because its not really their fault and yet their lives are being used as a political football by both sides. They only know the United States as their country and home. Many have joined the military and have been putting their lives on the line for the security of this country. What do you say to them? "Thanks for risking your lives on the line for America but we are going to deport you now."

Its inhumane and Washington as a whole should be ashamed for handling DACA in this manner.
I get what your saying. But the dreamer , DACA, immigration has nothing to do with the budget.  Plus what's more important right now, ChIP Kids or illegal immigrants.  Instead of funding the government, the dems are using this as hostage.  Fund the government now, and then fight when the deadline for DACA hits in March. The Military and Fed responders should be paid.
I blame both parties. It shouldn't have come down to this. Both parties are playing with hundreds of thousands of people's lives. I find it disgusting.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2018, 04:00:17 PM »

Offline Pucaccia

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So, the government is going to be shut down over DACA?

It's called the  Schumer ShutDown.

Military won't get paid, Fed Workers won't get paid, and The Dems Turned down a continuation of the Child Healthcare Insurance Program that 9 million AMERICAN children rely on.
They are holding out for a non budgetary DACA program that has a deadline in March.

Schumer and the democrats are putting non citizens ahead of Americans, just for political reasons. They should be ashamed of themselves.   Even if you don't like Trump, you should be offended with the Democrats "non citizens first" political strategy.

87% of Americans support DACA. If you believe in republican democracy, you should be enraged that Congress has ignored the will of their constituents and not made it permanent law yet.

The Republicans are the ones who tied CHIP to the budget. If they want to vote on it as a stand alone bill, I'm sure the Democrats would pass it. Give me a break with your phony concern for those kids. If Republicans take CHIP off the table, are you still going blame Democrats when these kids don't get health care? Of course you will.

Regarding your "non-citizens first" comment, I'm old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan vetoed a budget because he didn't like the cuts to foreign aid. The government shutdown ended when Congress agreed to his demand to send more American money to the rebels in Nicaragua. My guess is that this event didn't make you stop worshipping Saint Ronnie even a little bit.

DACA has nothing to do with the budget right now. The CHIPs program does.  It's a little disingenuous to say I don't care about the kid for CHIPs.  It's typical Leftist Elitist thinking. You think your the only one that care. 

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2018, 04:09:46 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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So, the government is going to be shut down over DACA?

It's called the  Schumer ShutDown.

Military won't get paid, Fed Workers won't get paid, and The Dems Turned down a continuation of the Child Healthcare Insurance Program that 9 million AMERICAN children rely on.
They are holding out for a non budgetary DACA program that has a deadline in March.

Schumer and the democrats are putting non citizens ahead of Americans, just for political reasons. They should be ashamed of themselves.   Even if you don't like Trump, you should be offended with the Democrats "non citizens first" political strategy.

87% of Americans support DACA. If you believe in republican democracy, you should be enraged that Congress has ignored the will of their constituents and not made it permanent law yet.

The Republicans are the ones who tied CHIP to the budget. If they want to vote on it as a stand alone bill, I'm sure the Democrats would pass it. Give me a break with your phony concern for those kids. If Republicans take CHIP off the table, are you still going blame Democrats when these kids don't get health care? Of course you will.

Regarding your "non-citizens first" comment, I'm old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan vetoed a budget because he didn't like the cuts to foreign aid. The government shutdown ended when Congress agreed to his demand to send more American money to the rebels in Nicaragua. My guess is that this event didn't make you stop worshipping Saint Ronnie even a little bit.

DACA has nothing to do with the budget right now. The CHIPs program does.  It's a little disingenuous to say I don't care about the kid for CHIPs.  It's typical Leftist Elitist thinking. You think your the only one that care.
The only reason CHIP has anything to do with this is because the Republicans want to use it as a political football.  It should have been taken care of on it's own months ago but the Repubs did not do that so that they could use the CHIP program as a political hostage.  It is terribly disingenuous of Republicans (not you specifically but Republican politicians) to try to spin this as Dems choosing illegal immigrants over insurance for children.  This is an ugly and unnecessary game of chicken.
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Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2018, 04:09:52 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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So, the government is going to be shut down over DACA?

It's called the  Schumer ShutDown.

Military won't get paid, Fed Workers won't get paid, and The Dems Turned down a continuation of the Child Healthcare Insurance Program that 9 million AMERICAN children rely on.
They are holding out for a non budgetary DACA program that has a deadline in March.

Schumer and the democrats are putting non citizens ahead of Americans, just for political reasons. They should be ashamed of themselves.   Even if you don't like Trump, you should be offended with the Democrats "non citizens first" political strategy.

87% of Americans support DACA. If you believe in republican democracy, you should be enraged that Congress has ignored the will of their constituents and not made it permanent law yet.

The Republicans are the ones who tied CHIP to the budget. If they want to vote on it as a stand alone bill, I'm sure the Democrats would pass it. Give me a break with your phony concern for those kids. If Republicans take CHIP off the table, are you still going blame Democrats when these kids don't get health care? Of course you will.

Regarding your "non-citizens first" comment, I'm old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan vetoed a budget because he didn't like the cuts to foreign aid. The government shutdown ended when Congress agreed to his demand to send more American money to the rebels in Nicaragua. My guess is that this event didn't make you stop worshipping Saint Ronnie even a little bit.

DACA has nothing to do with the budget right now. The CHIPs program does.  It's a little disingenuous to say I don't care about the kid for CHIPs.  It's typical Leftist Elitist thinking. You think your the only one that care.

Unnecessary to say "typical Leftist Elitist Thinking".   MANY different views EVEN AMONG THE LIBERAL PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG!     Can we all stop the Right v Left bashing and just argue our own points of view without vitriol or stereotyping?    Plenty of good points on both sides.... all with merit.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2018, 04:10:04 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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So, the government is going to be shut down over DACA?

It's called the  Schumer ShutDown.

Military won't get paid, Fed Workers won't get paid, and The Dems Turned down a continuation of the Child Healthcare Insurance Program that 9 million AMERICAN children rely on.
They are holding out for a non budgetary DACA program that has a deadline in March.

Schumer and the democrats are putting non citizens ahead of Americans, just for political reasons. They should be ashamed of themselves.   Even if you don't like Trump, you should be offended with the Democrats "non citizens first" political strategy.

87% of Americans support DACA. If you believe in republican democracy, you should be enraged that Congress has ignored the will of their constituents and not made it permanent law yet.

The Republicans are the ones who tied CHIP to the budget. If they want to vote on it as a stand alone bill, I'm sure the Democrats would pass it. Give me a break with your phony concern for those kids. If Republicans take CHIP off the table, are you still going blame Democrats when these kids don't get health care? Of course you will.

Regarding your "non-citizens first" comment, I'm old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan vetoed a budget because he didn't like the cuts to foreign aid. The government shutdown ended when Congress agreed to his demand to send more American money to the rebels in Nicaragua. My guess is that this event didn't make you stop worshipping Saint Ronnie even a little bit.

DACA has nothing to do with the budget right now. The CHIPs program does.  It's a little disingenuous to say I don't care about the kid for CHIPs.  It's typical Leftist Elitist thinking. You think your the only one that care.

Right so the Republicans are holding CHIP hostage to get more concessions out of the Democrats, because they can't get enough Republicans to pass a budget without Democratic support.  Since that is a hard thing to tell the American people, they are using the immigration angle through their propaganda arms to blame it on the Democrats.  It doesn't change the fact that if all the Republicans voted for the same plan, there wouldn't be a shutdown.  It's just incompetence. 

If the Democrats allow CHIP or the DREAM Act to go away though, it will hurt their own standing in the midterms.  They don't even really have a choice politically but to support it.  The Republicans are throwing their own leverage away with this nonsense.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2018, 05:09:34 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Right so the Republicans are holding CHIP hostage to get more concessions out of the Democrats, because they can't get enough Republicans to pass a budget without Democratic support.

The trouble with this is that the GOP are the ones voting to extend CHIP

Quote
GOP leaders have signed off on a six-year extension of CHIP, and they’re openly daring Democrats to vote against it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-weaponize-childrens-health-care-against-dems

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20171103/NEWS/171109951

Leverage or no, I think the GOP wins this time if they have the vote and the Dems obstruct.  It is not that way now, but once the vote is in the Senate.   Trust me, the 20% that believe it is the GOP's fault today will go down.  I told people that I thought Trump could win long before it was fashionable to think that.   Living in Ohio, a good bell weather state I can hear a good mix of different opinions.   People's opinions will change once they see the votes.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2018, 05:24:51 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Right so the Republicans are holding CHIP hostage to get more concessions out of the Democrats, because they can't get enough Republicans to pass a budget without Democratic support.

The trouble with this is that the GOP are the ones voting to extend CHIP

Quote
GOP leaders have signed off on a six-year extension of CHIP, and they’re openly daring Democrats to vote against it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-weaponize-childrens-health-care-against-dems

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20171103/NEWS/171109951

Leverage or no, I think the GOP wins this time if they have the vote and the Dems obstruct.  It is not that way now, but once the vote is in the Senate.   Trust me, the 20% that believe it is the GOP's fault today will go down.  I told people that I thought Trump could win long before it was fashionable to think that.   Living in Ohio, a good bell weather state I can hear a good mix of different opinions.   People's opinions will change once they see the votes.

No they're literally saying CHIP or DREAM.  The Democratic base won't allow them to get rid of either without a huge fight.  They were going to do a short term extension and authorize CHIP which actually saves money for the government, but Trump killed that deal.  When the Democratic base actually shows up, they win every time because there are a ton more Democrats than Republicans.  The Democrats are not relying on white voters like they used to and that is only going to become more true.  They can't allow the DREAM act to fail, they'll lose much worse.

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2018, 06:09:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Right so the Republicans ... can't get enough Republicans to pass a budget without Democratic support

Right, because there are 51 Republicans, and appropriations bills effectively require 60 votes.

Now, if there’s a mechanism for 51 Senators to cast 60 ballots, I’m sure Mitch McConnell would like to hear about it.


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Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2018, 06:19:05 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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Right so the Republicans ... can't get enough Republicans to pass a budget without Democratic support

Right, because there are 51 Republicans, and appropriations bills effectively require 60 votes.

Now, if there’s a mechanism for 51 Senators to cast 60 ballots, I’m sure Mitch McConnell would like to hear about it.
Reportedly the Republicans cannot even get 50 votes in the senate for the house plan but there are 56 votes for the bipartisan plan that President Trump would not agree to.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-shutdown/republicans-scramble-for-votes-in-congress-to-keep-government-open-idUSKBN1F61WX
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Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2018, 06:39:11 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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I feel for the Dreamers because its not really their fault and yet their lives are being used as a political football by both sides. They only know the United States as their country and home. Many have joined the military and have been putting their lives on the line for the security of this country. What do you say to them? "Thanks for risking your lives on the line for America but we are going to deport you now."

Its inhumane and Washington as a whole should be ashamed for handling DACA in this manner.
I get what your saying. But the dreamer , DACA, immigration has nothing to do with the budget.  Plus what's more important right now, ChIP Kids or illegal immigrants.  Instead of funding the government, the dems are using this as hostage.  Fund the government now, and then fight when the deadline for DACA hits in March. The Military and Fed responders should be paid.

Yes, we've played this game from both sides now.  It was wrong to shut down the government in 2013 and it was a disaster.   I definitely understand the dems frustration and understand the doubt that everyone has that these important issues will be resolved the next time around if we buy a little more time.  But, you can't shut down the government.  It's bad politics and it's bad for people.

BUT... here's the thing... shame on all of them!    I thought Obama was a failed leader when it became clear that he was unable to bring the parties together.   Trump, in addition to all his other foibles, appears equally inept at leadership.
How was the 2013 shutdown a disaster?  Inconvenient, stupid and a waste of tax payer money but hardly a disaster. 

The government doesn't actually shutdown.  Each agency defines its essential services and the people required to support them.  That will probably be a third or more of the federal work force.  Those government workers come to work as normal and will definitely get paid albeit potentially late.  After the shutdown resolves, Congress will almost certainly authorize pay for the government workers that actually are furloughed.  I've been a part of several shutdowns in my 30+ years at NASA and don't recall that ever not happening. 

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2018, 07:20:31 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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How was the 2013 shutdown a disaster?  Inconvenient, stupid and a waste of tax payer money but hardly a disaster. 

The government doesn't actually shutdown.  Each agency defines its essential services and the people required to support them.  That will probably be a third or more of the federal work force.  Those government workers come to work as normal and will definitely get paid albeit potentially late.  After the shutdown resolves, Congress will almost certainly authorize pay for the government workers that actually are furloughed.  I've been a part of several shutdowns in my 30+ years at NASA and don't recall that ever not happening.
Most government contractors cannot be paid while the government is in shutdown, which means  their employees go on unpaid leave. That means stop-work orders are being issues, and workers cannot be compensated for any work done during that period. Federal employees may end up recovering their salary, but laborers on federal contracts will likely lose wages.
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Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2018, 08:56:51 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I feel for the Dreamers because its not really their fault and yet their lives are being used as a political football by both sides. They only know the United States as their country and home. Many have joined the military and have been putting their lives on the line for the security of this country. What do you say to them? "Thanks for risking your lives on the line for America but we are going to deport you now."

Its inhumane and Washington as a whole should be ashamed for handling DACA in this manner.
I get what your saying. But the dreamer , DACA, immigration has nothing to do with the budget.  Plus what's more important right now, ChIP Kids or illegal immigrants.  Instead of funding the government, the dems are using this as hostage.  Fund the government now, and then fight when the deadline for DACA hits in March. The Military and Fed responders should be paid.

Yes, we've played this game from both sides now.  It was wrong to shut down the government in 2013 and it was a disaster.   I definitely understand the dems frustration and understand the doubt that everyone has that these important issues will be resolved the next time around if we buy a little more time.  But, you can't shut down the government.  It's bad politics and it's bad for people.

BUT... here's the thing... shame on all of them!    I thought Obama was a failed leader when it became clear that he was unable to bring the parties together.   Trump, in addition to all his other foibles, appears equally inept at leadership.
How was the 2013 shutdown a disaster?  Inconvenient, stupid and a waste of tax payer money but hardly a disaster. 

The government doesn't actually shutdown.  Each agency defines its essential services and the people required to support them.  That will probably be a third or more of the federal work force.  Those government workers come to work as normal and will definitely get paid albeit potentially late.  After the shutdown resolves, Congress will almost certainly authorize pay for the government workers that actually are furloughed.  I've been a part of several shutdowns in my 30+ years at NASA and don't recall that ever not happening.

Not a disaster, but it had an impact that most people were not happy with and most people don't want repeated.  While people were paid eventually as you said, there was a lot of unnecessary anxiety.     Here is an ABC News synopsis, I selected this excerpt from many equivalent options:

"Nearly 800,000 federal employees were out of work without pay. In addition, more than a million other working employees had their paychecks delayed. On day five of the shutdown, Congress voted to give the furloughed government employees retroactive pay. Meanwhile, some members of Congress kept collecting their paychecks, while others voluntarily gave theirs up.
Nonessential departments and employees were furloughed. National parks, the National Zoo and NASA were all closed. The National Park Service lost more than 700,000 daily visitors, who typically add about $76 million to the national economy each day.

Veterans pushed past barricades of the closed WWII memorial. The World War II memorial was technically closed because of the shutdown, but that didn’t stop 92 Mississippi Gulf Coast Honor Flight Veterans from crossing the barricades and touring the site.
V.A. financial benefits were disrupted. Millions of veterans and their families almost did not receive their benefits. The Veterans Affairs secretary at the time, Eric Shinseki, warned that if the shutdown continued through late October, the agency would not be able to send out compensation checks to 5.1 million veterans.
There was an increase in restaurant beverage (mostly liquor) sales. Beverage sales saw a 3 percent increase during the first week of October compared to the first week of September that year.
 
It cost the country $24 billion. According to estimates by the financial services company Standards & Poor’s, the government shutdown cost America a whopping $24 billion, or $1.5 billion a day."

Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2018, 11:11:58 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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No they're literally saying CHIP or DREAM.  The Democratic base won't allow them to get rid of either without a huge fight.

The base is not who is elected, its the Congressmen and woman that didn't allow for it to go through.  The real thing is that the bases of either party right now is what is driving the extremism.   Some of the rest us don't like the GOP extreme nor the liberal extreme.   There are still some true independents and moderates out there I hope.

Quote
When the Democratic base actually shows up, they win every time because there are a ton more Democrats than Republicans.  The Democrats are not relying on white voters like they used to and that is only going to become more true.  They can't allow the DREAM act to fail, they'll lose much worse.

The trouble is getting them to show up.   Right now it is so easy with polarizing Pres. Trump.  I mean the guy in AL almost won despite all the bad stuff.   I know its a red state that turned but Doug Jones voted with the GOP on this issue. 

They already have failed to a large extent regarding the Dems and the GOP.   Anytime all you do is obstruct and have no real policy of your own it may get you in power but people are not ready to govern after those kinds of politics.   A lot of the politics of this country is cyclical.  I think this will be similiar to the GOP with Obamacare their goal was to remove it, yet when time came they had no plan.   I think the Dems are the same, they want to get rid of Trump but they are not ready to govern.   They had a majority during Pres. Obama and did little.   Face it both of these parties are a complete joke worried more about staying in or obtaining  power than running the country.  We all lose, the dreamers lose, too.




Re: Government Shutdown
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2018, 12:43:35 AM »

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Republicans have been on Go-It-Alone mode from Day 1.  They spent their legislative efforts shutting out Democrats and the public from the lawmaking process, refusing to negotiate or hold hearings.  The Senate Appropriations Committee has had one hearing since July.  They’ve played kick the can with the budget three times already, and put together another short-term CR yesterday, again with no negotiation with Dems, that they’re just supposed to accept?

Good on Dems for finally showing some backbone and saying no.  The Republican Congress hasn’t been serious about negotiating at all, or even having hearings, and this appears to be the only way Dems can get them to come to the table.  It stinks this is the only way, but we’re a year in and it obviously is.
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