Author Topic: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)  (Read 9382 times)

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2018, 01:39:51 PM »

Online Monkhouse

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?

Did Kevin Love like fall off a cliff or are people convinced he's not gonna be an All-star?
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Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

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It's based on your perspective, quite simply
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #121 on: January 22, 2018, 01:43:33 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?

Did Kevin Love like fall off a cliff or are people convinced he's not gonna be an All-star?

I don't have all the article handy right now, but I have read several pieces that don't have him on the team strictly because of his defense (which goes to show you how bad it has been, cause defense isn't the first thing people think about for the all-star game). They have been playing him at the 5 through a combination of Thompson getting kardashianed and injured and he just can't seem to handle that role defensively. I believe his advanced stats are also not great (his counting and shooting stats are good).

I think he probably has about a 50% chance of making the team, but it may be partly because the all-star field is very weak in the east this year following the departures of George and Butler over the offseason. Guys like Lowry, Walker, Horford and Simmons are competing for the last spot or two this year...

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #122 on: January 22, 2018, 01:44:42 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Saw Windhorst out there trying to say everything was IT's fault LOL.
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #123 on: January 22, 2018, 01:56:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then. 

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #124 on: January 22, 2018, 01:57:37 PM »

Online Monkhouse

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Will you finally agree with me that Crowder at the 4, and Love at the 5 is just mind boggling? It's not working. Lue needs to stop running with that freakin' lineup.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2018, 02:11:53 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on. 

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2018, 04:48:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Will you finally agree with me that Crowder at the 4, and Love at the 5 is just mind boggling? It's not working. Lue needs to stop running with that freakin' lineup.
I never thought that would work well for any period of time.  Sure against certain lineups that might work (like say the Warriors small ball death lineup), but against most teams that is a bad idea.  Aside from Crowder being a terrible PF, he should be a bench player, which I've been saying for years. 

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2018, 04:54:26 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on.
Thomas is obviously not going to average 29 points, but I absolutely think (barring re-injury) that he will start to consistently score 20 a night and shoot in the 36-37% range from three (which is basically his career average) at some point this season, when he gets comfortable with playing again and gets back into game shape.  I mean the last three games, he has scored 19, 21, and 24 shooting 1 of 7, 3 of 10, and 4 of 8 from 3 (so 32%).  In other words, he is starting to find his shooting touch.  He is getting to the line more and shooting pretty darn well from 2 point range. 

He was always a terrible defender, but he is not a terrible offensive player and he is starting to show that again.  He missed months with a hip injury, you don't just step on the court and are back to 100% in a couple of games with that type of injury.  It takes time and Thomas will get there.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2018, 06:15:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on.
Thomas is obviously not going to average 29 points, but I absolutely think (barring re-injury) that he will start to consistently score 20 a night and shoot in the 36-37% range from three (which is basically his career average) at some point this season, when he gets comfortable with playing again and gets back into game shape.  I mean the last three games, he has scored 19, 21, and 24 shooting 1 of 7, 3 of 10, and 4 of 8 from 3 (so 32%).  In other words, he is starting to find his shooting touch.  He is getting to the line more and shooting pretty darn well from 2 point range. 

He was always a terrible defender, but he is not a terrible offensive player and he is starting to show that again.  He missed months with a hip injury, you don't just step on the court and are back to 100% in a couple of games with that type of injury.  It takes time and Thomas will get there.

I think it would be a fair take to think he joins the list of players (Evan Turner, Crowder, Jordan Crawford off top of head) that never looked as good on other teams as they did for Boston. With Bradley and Smart playing a lot of minutes alongside them IT was in the best position to have his defensive issues masked some. Without playing alongside somebody like that, can he play long enough to average 20 points? Right now even when his shooting comes around a little bit it seems the best hope would be that he could be a break even player. That isn't going to be an all-star. I also think it is a little bit strange to hold up his 24 point scoring game against OKC as some sort of success when he was playing a significant role in the Thunder scoring 148 and he was on the court when they got absolutely roasted in the first quarter and were down 33-14 after the 8 minutes he played.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2018, 07:01:34 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

EDIT: Granted, that’s a soft “could,” and it’d have to be a good deal for them.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:09:55 PM by jpotter33 »
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2018, 07:05:04 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.
DPE??? ;)
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2018, 07:05:51 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2018, 07:07:07 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2018, 07:10:06 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Also, on The Jump Windhorst stated that the team is frustrated with IT offensively and how he’s playing (i.e. shooting so much, especially shooting this poorly). But guys, remember, Lue clearly wasn’t referring to IT with his “agenda” comments.  ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJV46IPkO4

EDIT: And given that Windhorst is Lebron’s unofficial mouthpiece, this is pretty interesting.
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #134 on: January 22, 2018, 07:11:53 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird