Author Topic: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)  (Read 9963 times)

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2018, 10:57:50 PM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Their roster is so worn down and dysfunctional it's scary.

- Love's talents are redundant because of LeBron wanting the same court positions as him and the fact his body is falling apart
- Thompson has regressed like crazy since going out with a Kardashian.
- JR Smith is no longer the defender he was
- Crowder is no longer the defender he was since his injury a couple of years ago and is playing out of position.
- Thomas will no longer be the centre of the offence and doesn't have the same defensive cover that he did in Boston.
- Rose is finished unfortunately and his remaining abilities are redundant.
- Green can't be relied on, on either side of the court.

Ty Lue is too inexperienced for this type of ego's and situation, he should have been let go for someone better a long time ago but I believe Dan Gilbert is too cheap to get the right guy.

Most will blame LeBron some how but it all comes to Gilbert, he's cheap, rude, abusive and never gets the right person for the job, this is why LeBron left last time and sadly will leave again.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2018, 11:15:21 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the other change in context of Lue inexplicably changing the starting lineup to move Love to the 5 to fit Crowder in. That's yet another change making these analog arguments fallacious and irrelevant.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, and that's also forgetting to consider the fact that the East is MUCH, MUCH better this season with several legit contenders for the Eastern crown (Boston, Toronto, Cleveland) and several faux contenders that will nonetheless be tough outs in the playoffs (Milwaukee, Washington, Miami).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 11:20:23 PM by jpotter33 »
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2018, 11:19:11 PM »

Online SCeltic34

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According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.

Isaiah as played 6 games in CLE.  He doesn't have his feel for the game back yet, and the Cavs have struggled to fit all year.  Any advanced statistics are pretty meaningless.  And relative to his prior stats... he has been a plus his entire career (based on your PM), and improved for each team he spent any meaningful time on.  Painting him as a net negative is super short-sighted and unfair, don't you think?

I'm not sure what else CLE could have done to improve, and ultimately, there was nothing they could to to improve to the level of GS.  They also haven't cared about the regular season in years, and their performance has shown that it doesn't matter.  Maybe they aren't good enough to come out of the East this year -- I'm doubtful they won't -- but again we're reaching here about how meaningful their issues and poor stats will be when it matters. 

-tars & Big Mo

The point is that Cleveland's defense is their biggest problem - a problem that will only be magnified with IT on the court.  I acknowledged the small sample size, but I expect the numbers to continue to show worse defense with IT on the court, while I expect the offensive numbers to improve.  And I'm not that big on advanced stats.  They're helpful when used in context thought I prefer the eye test, butother than Celtics games I haven't been able to watch other teams much this season.

And I didn't, and wouldn't, paint IT as a net negative.  That certainly wasn't the case when he was with the C's.


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Pierce: "I called game."

- Paul Pierce on his game-winning buzzer beater, game 3 EC Semi-finals against the Atlanta Hawks

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2018, 11:20:09 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season -- the narrative last year was the same "this year is different."  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, but superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence.  People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 11:26:42 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2018, 11:33:22 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2018, 11:37:40 PM »

Offline sirnastee

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Lebron is so annoying because ever since the Antawn Jamison days, he's been pretty much making his GM go out and get certain players... Then, the team struggles, and he complains that the team isn't good enough when he's the one who controls the management of the team.  He makes Cavs resign Tristan Thompson for a ridiculous amount because they share an agent, go out and get Dwayne Wade, it is pretty ridiculous. 
LA Clippers: Sam Dekker, Patrick Beverley, DeAndre Jordan, Lou Williams, Montrezl Harrell, Austin Rivers, Wesley Johnson, Brice Johnson, Danilo Gallinari, Milos Teodosic, Jawun Evans, Blake Griffin, Sindarius Thornwell, Willie Reed, C.J. Williams, Tyrone Wallace

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2018, 12:20:18 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I appreciate your evidence, but agree to disagree.  You find these circumstances to be worse enough to create a different outcome this season;  I see each year that the conversation has happened before to be analogous.  And the other consistency is LBJ's 7 consecutive Finals appearances. 

Appreciate the Trump and Obama comparison too.  It's cheeky, but c'mon... that defines apples to oranges.  But if anything, they prove my point - you could definitely predict how each would behavior/act in a lot of circumstances.  I don't think your philosophical stuff matches up well with the past behavior --> future behavior relation.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:28:21 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2018, 12:28:14 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Their roster is so worn down and dysfunctional it's scary.

- Love's talents are redundant because of LeBron wanting the same court positions as him and the fact his body is falling apart
- Thompson has regressed like crazy since going out with a Kardashian.
- JR Smith is no longer the defender he was
- Crowder is no longer the defender he was since his injury a couple of years ago and is playing out of position.
- Thomas will no longer be the centre of the offence and doesn't have the same defensive cover that he did in Boston.
- Rose is finished unfortunately and his remaining abilities are redundant.
- Green can't be relied on, on either side of the court.

Ty Lue is too inexperienced for this type of ego's and situation, he should have been let go for someone better a long time ago but I believe Dan Gilbert is too cheap to get the right guy.

Most will blame LeBron some how but it all comes to Gilbert, he's cheap, rude, abusive and never gets the right person for the job, this is why LeBron left last time and sadly will leave again.


pretty cool stuff

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2018, 02:44:08 AM »

Online CelticsElite

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IT defensive  rating was 151 tonight. Had to be some historic bad number
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:49:17 AM by CelticsElite »

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2018, 03:29:49 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2018, 03:34:03 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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IT defensive  rating was 151 tonight. Had to be some historic bad number

Thank you for sharing

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2018, 03:38:02 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

Yea that eastern conference record was a really bad take. The cavs have lost to the best teams all year, we haven't.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2018, 03:58:00 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

Yea that eastern conference record was a really bad take. The cavs have lost to the best teams all year, we haven't.

We should've won opening night even without Gordon Hayward. With Gordon Hayward, Celtics would've thrashed them by 20 points and I am not kidding.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2018, 03:59:31 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Imagine if Hayward was 100% and it's a Cavs-Celtics playoff series.

Celtics will SWEEP them even with a healthy IT3.  8)

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2018, 06:10:40 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 06:34:44 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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