Author Topic: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)  (Read 10856 times)

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2018, 08:18:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?
It was more like 2 months ago and I said BKN and LAL were the two most valuable picks because they weren't owned by the team trading the pick, but I also pretty clearly said things would change as the season went on.  2 months later Brooklyn is looking pretty solidly like the 8-10 pick range, which is what that pick is now valued at (of course another couple of weeks they might again be the worst team in the league and the picks value could be a lot more than 8-10).  A pick valued in the 8-10 range isn't going to fetch a difference maker because picks in that range rarely produce difference makers when drafted.  The Cavs are also in a precarious situation basically needing to go all in on this season for obvious reasons (age, contract status, etc.) so a trade that makes them clearly better (which Bazemore and Dedmon does - while also removing the cancer that is JR Smith) is the type of trade they should consider. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:55:19 AM by Moranis »

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2018, 03:11:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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New article says Lebron's excuses are weak:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/enough-with-lebron-james-excuses-for-the-cavs-who-just-arent-very-good-right-now/

Media really piling on the cavs right now. Fun reads.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2018, 03:13:28 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?
It was more like 2 months ago and I said BKN and LAL were the two most valuable picks because they weren't owned by the team trading the pick, but I also pretty clearly said things would change as the season went on.  2 months later Brooklyn is looking pretty solidly like the 8-10 pick range, which is what that pick is now valued at (of course another couple of weeks they might again be the worst team in the league and the picks value could be a lot more than 8-10).  A pick valued in the 8-10 range isn't going to fetch a difference maker because picks in that range rarely produce difference makers when drafted.  The Cavs are also in a precarious situation basically needing to go all in on this season for obvious reasons (age, contract status, etc.) so a trade that makes them clearly better (which Bazemore and Dedmon does - while also removing the cancer that is JR Smith) is the type of trade they should consider.

If the Cavs do this trade you are suggesting, would you say a terrible Jae Crowder, 20 healthy games of IT, Bazemore and zizic's carcass for Irving goes down as an all-time ripoff? What if Irving and the Celtics beat them.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2018, 08:48:26 AM »

Offline cman88

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lebron has no one to blame but himself for the roster construction. It was Lebron that lobbied for big contracts for Tristen Tjompson, kyle korver and JR smith who are now leaving no flexibility with the cap. and it was lebron who lobbied for the who's who of washed up veterans.

For all the people saying "cavs will figure it out!" the warning signs were there even during their winning streak. During that streak while they were winning they were still giving up as much as they scored. Just that Lebron was playing out of his mind for 40 minutes a game to pull wins off.

I really don't know what the Cavs can do to bridge the gap. Lets say all the apologists are right and the cavs can roll through the east in the playoffs.

I see no way they can win more than 1 game against golden state. and I see no way they can totally reconstruct the roster in the off-season save for trading the brooklyn pick which is losing value with every nets win.

this Cavs team is where the Heat were when lebron bolted...but probably worse. cash strapped with Under-performing, overpaid veterans with not much room for improvement. Lebron bolted when he saw the writing on the wall that the heats championship days were done. will he do the same to the cavs?


Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2018, 02:37:45 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Let them implode

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2018, 02:58:12 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2018, 08:46:22 PM »

Offline SCeltic34

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According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.


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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2018, 09:21:27 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.

Isaiah as played 6 games in CLE.  He doesn't have his feel for the game back yet, and the Cavs have struggled to fit all year.  Any advanced statistics are pretty meaningless.  And relative to his prior stats... he has been a plus his entire career (based on your PM), and improved for each team he spent any meaningful time on.  Painting him as a net negative is super short-sighted and unfair, don't you think?

I'm not sure what else CLE could have done to improve, and ultimately, there was nothing they could to to improve to the level of GS.  They also haven't cared about the regular season in years, and their performance has shown that it doesn't matter.  Maybe they aren't good enough to come out of the East this year -- I'm doubtful they won't -- but again we're reaching here about how meaningful their issues and poor stats will be when it matters. 

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #83 on: January 20, 2018, 09:28:57 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

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If IT keeps talking like this the Cavs demise could come sooner rather than later. Chemistry doesn’t seem to be all there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2755155-isaiah-thomas-cavs-dont-trust-each-other-celtics-tried-harder-defensively.amp.html

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #84 on: January 20, 2018, 09:32:30 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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If IT keeps talking like this the Cavs demise could come sooner rather than later. Chemistry doesn’t seem to be all there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2755155-isaiah-thomas-cavs-dont-trust-each-other-celtics-tried-harder-defensively.amp.html

He's right though.  I'm glad he didn't break the unspoken rule of not throwing your teammates under the bus (unlike LBJ).  Sometimes these comments can light a fire under a team's butt, and commenting on defense, effort, and trust are pretty much the perfect things to say if that's the intention.  Media comments always perceived differently by fans, but I'd say he's just being a leader.  For his sake, I hope he's able to get out of CLE after this season. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 09:49:10 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2018, 09:37:00 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh... 

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2018, 09:44:19 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Cavs need to beat someone with a pulse first. They are primed to be dispatched this year. Just a matter of finally doing it. They will try outscore everyone again and I see that being harder this time around. Hope they keep chirping to the media.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2018, 10:00:14 PM »

Online jpotter33

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2018, 10:39:06 PM »

Offline gouki88

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2018, 10:54:10 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)

Re: Isaiah, I'm just repeating myself -- he's been a net plus his entire career.  Like so many other PGs, his offense contributions have always outweighed his poor defense.  Again, I trust years of data more than months of data.
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