Author Topic: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)  (Read 10609 times)

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2018, 05:28:04 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2018, 05:33:08 PM »

Offline jbp126

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My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2018, 05:34:24 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Until we beat them in the playoffs all this is moot.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2018, 05:36:09 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2018, 05:48:21 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Iím a little cautious to write off LeBron, regardless of the team around him. Weíve seen him put up some legendary performances against us in the playoffs.

But, this team is pretty bad. Last year, they were 29-11 on the same date. That included three LeBron DNPís, of which all were Lís. So with LeBron, they were actually 29-8. He only played in 5 of 8 b2bís at this point (and played in 6 of 9 the rest of the way).

This season, he hasnít gotten any rest games (although more rest days in between). Heís already played in 8 b2bís with 5 more still on their schedule. His minutes are about the same so I wouldnít really worry about how much heís playing, but how frequently could be an issue.

They were 51-23 with him in the lineup. Thatís a 69% winning clip, while this year they are winning at a 60% clip (which is perhaps skewed from that 19-2 run against weak opponents) with him.


If this is how bad they play the rest of the year, itís probably who they are. If IT gets back to himself and they rattle off another win streak and still win 50-55, I would put them as the favorites.

But they sure look vulnerable and I think they could set themselves up for a much more difficult road to the ECF than LeBron is used to.
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2018, 05:58:45 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Wow now Windhorst is piling on saying the Cavs could learn from the Spurs in how they handled Aldridge's trade request. One you see Lebron's personal fan biographer bashing the front office of Cleveland its pretty clear to me Lebron won't be sticking around (more than anything else i have seen or read)

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22110844/how-cleveland-cavaliers-san-antonio-spurs-handled-trade-demands-worlds-apart

Yeah... when Windhorst is showing concern for the Cavaliers, you know something is up.

I'm sure Cleveland may still find a way to get through the East (with some tough 6-7 game series), but there's a great chance they get swept by Golden State in the Finals (not even a single win for CLE).
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2018, 06:26:10 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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It's true, they can't. They won one ge last year against GSW and they didn't get better. Now could they still make it out if the east. Sure. But they don't have a shot against GSW. To be fair neither do we, or anyone else.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2018, 06:56:30 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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Quote
Cavs players don't think current roster can compete

but they have Jae Crowder!?!?!

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2018, 07:06:46 PM »

Offline Who

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AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

They need to worry less about the Warriors and more about the Celtics and Raptors.

The Cavs are not getting out of the East in their current state.

Worrying about the Warriors is putting the cart before the horse.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2018, 07:13:26 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

They need to worry less about the Warriors and more about the Celtics and Raptors.

The Cavs are not getting out of the East in their current state.

Worrying about the Warriors is putting the cart before the horse.

nope .....Cavs have Lebron and the BIG picture is what matters .....telling him we can give you a little help is not gonna cut it with Lebron .   ....He expects to be in the finals......if Ceveland does not care to go all in to win with Lebron ....then they 100 % be sure he is nit staying n.  Bron is not worried about Celtics .....if he beats Celtics and can't beat Warriors , its all in vain for him.....and what irks Lebron is bad for Cleveland.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2018, 07:51:05 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2018, 08:09:45 PM »

Offline gouki88

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My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.
Because there isn't one

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2018, 08:10:28 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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I really hope Love and some other Cavs weren't calling out IT for the defense so much.  Didn't kill the Celtics and they were already awful.

That being said, at some point that is part of his ultimate ceiling as a player and why I was very happy with the trade.  Still love IT.
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2018, 08:10:29 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.

I'd take Conley and Gasol over IT4 and Love right now today.
Self proclaimed president of the fictional Troz3 fan club.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2018, 08:23:02 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Conley is a really good player, but he has never been considered a top point guard in the NBA. He's never been to an all-star game. His defense is good, but not great. Until last year, he never averaged more than 18 ppg in a year, and he reverted to below that this season. He's never averaged more than 7 assists per game.

Meanwhile, Thomas averaged almost 30 a game last year on his way to his second all-star game and an all-nba second team.

He's a good player, but is he even a top 10 point guard? Most people would take Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Lillard, Paul, Wall, and Harden (if you consider him a pg) over him. He's in the next class with Bledsoe, Walker, Holliday, and Dragic. Its debatable if he is top 10 (although I'd put him at 8 ). I'd say Thomas is in Conley's same tier.

Gasol is definitely over-the-hill. He can't play defense anymore. He has added the 3 point shot to his game which will prolong his career, but Grizzles fans know that he is not an elite player anymore. Besides, he is a 7 foot 280 bear who has had foot issues lately.

Going forward, you are probably guaranteed 5-6 more years of high level play from Love, but only 2 from Gasol (hopefully injury-free). Love can shoot outside and rebound. If you put the ball in his hands more, I still think he can be the offensive threat he was when he played with the Wolves.

Imagine what the Warriors, or any smart time, would do to Gasol with switches. If you think Love is bad on the perimeter, you should watch Gasol these days. Its brutal.