Author Topic: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)  (Read 10638 times)

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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2018, 03:05:49 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Does anyone rational actually think they can compete? They’re worse than last year and last year were killed in the finals

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2018, 03:06:14 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...

I don't think a veteran laden team like that is terribly concerned about home court advantage.  Much rather, being healthy and not overworked in the regular season.

It's Jan 16.  Much too early to be throwing dirt on that team.  Especially when they still have the best player in the world playing for them.

Sure. They have Lebron, they have the experience and yes its early. But I wouldn't go dismissing  all their problems like posters have. They are real concerns, and it looks like they lost a bit of their mystique. The intimidation factor is gone.

Oh, for sure.  Where there is smoke, there's probably fire.  I certainly don't like its shangri-la over there these days. 

However, given today's date & recent history, I think there is still plenty of time for them to figure things out.  Much like the Pats, I can't kill that team until they're good and dead.

I wouldn't be dismissive of them as a Celtics fan.


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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2018, 03:06:51 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Does anyone rational actually think they can compete? They’re worse than last year and last year were killed in the finals

In the Finals?  Not really.

In the East?  For sure.


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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2018, 03:07:45 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2018, 03:12:53 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I would be willing to forsake all my fathers day gifts if Cleveland panic-trades IT for pennies on the dollar at the deadline and he rounds into shape soon after. Still pulling for the little guy and feeling like we kinda used him up and discarded him.

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The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2018, 03:21:44 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, “Are the Cavs starting to figure it out?” and “Are the Cavs better without Kyrie?” After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. What’s their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or fool’s gold? Let’s sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.

The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs don’t have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is fool’s gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just aren’t very good.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2018, 03:24:07 PM »

Offline Erik

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Thomas doesn't fit well on the Cavs roster. This is the result of an amateur GM that saw top PG for top PG and made the good on paper trade. Thomas needs to be the man offensively and he needs a fantastic defensive scheme built around hiding his weaknesses with everyone buying in. The Cavs don't have talented enough coaching or the type of players willing to learn new tricks and put egos aside to win ball games. I knew it would be a train wreck before even played. Anyone that saw Marcus Smart essentially following IT around on the court at all times switching the bad matchups knows that without that type of scheme and player there, he is going to revert to the old IT.

Re: The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2018, 03:26:20 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, “Are the Cavs starting to figure it out?” and “Are the Cavs better without Kyrie?” After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. What’s their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or fool’s gold? Let’s sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.

The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs don’t have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is fool’s gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just aren’t very good.

Yea interesting to dig into how big a fool's gold that streak was...

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2018, 03:31:56 PM »

Offline sed522002

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If true, Wade and Love have some NERVE to complain about anyone’s defense.

Quote
@IAmJamesStewart

Supposedly, LeBron and Kevin Love went to the media along with Wade and complained about how bad Isaiah was defensively. They complained about everyone but they keyed on Isaiah a lot.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2018, 03:34:31 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Essentially Cleveland needs a new starting PG (Thomas doesn't fit, Rose is a shell of himself), SG (Smith and Shumpert are garbage, Wade is better from the bench) and C (Love is a PF and Thompson plays awful).

It's time for them to make big moves. Trade the Nets pick. Trade Thomas and Crowder. Get rid of Smith, Shumpert and Thompson. Maybe even put Love on the block.

But even if they keep the same group together, I won't count them out. They've too much quality players and experience. I do believe that we have come a step closer.
Idiot.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2018, 03:56:56 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.

Lol I'm finding this pretty comical myself. You'd think this was FeartheSword with the type of Cavs homerism exhibited here.
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Re: The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2018, 03:59:30 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, “Are the Cavs starting to figure it out?” and “Are the Cavs better without Kyrie?” After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. What’s their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or fool’s gold? Let’s sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.


The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs don’t have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is fool’s gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just aren’t very good.

TP. I was beating this same drum throughout their winning streak when people were going overboard with it without considering the context.
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2018, 04:25:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

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There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2018, 04:52:55 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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It's really sickening Year after Year--to see everyone bend over backwards to appease LeBron James. Always gotta surround this guy with just the right players, or he will QUIT on his team...Tired of this pathetic and weak "King"......go away.
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Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2018, 04:57:09 PM »

Offline saltlover

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If true, Wade and Love have some NERVE to complain about anyone’s defense.

Quote
@IAmJamesStewart

Supposedly, LeBron and Kevin Love went to the media along with Wade and complained about how bad Isaiah was defensively. They complained about everyone but they keyed on Isaiah a lot.

I would be disappointed if Love had taken to backstabbing IT in the press.  I expect it from LeBron and Wade, but IT and Love have been friends since they were 12, with IT spending every other weekend with Love’s family.  They may not be BFFs, or whatever today’s term is, but going back that long should prevent anonymous complaints I’d think.
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