Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either. He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three). In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three. It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self. I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season. He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either? I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...
The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...
The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...
If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.
Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.
Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):
Cavs - 1-6
Celtics - 5-1
Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.
As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons. Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them. I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data. But hey, knock yourself out.
You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.
1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context
2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context
3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context
4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context
5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context
And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.
The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James." I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc. You can get hung up on new details every season. There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them.
I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means, but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong. The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.
Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.
For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.
Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."
This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.
Lol. I agree, best work yet. Have fun guys.
That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.
Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.
Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.
Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player. I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team). He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East. That seems like an all star to me. For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.
Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.
If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.
If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on.
Thomas is obviously not going to average 29 points, but I absolutely think (barring re-injury) that he will start to consistently score 20 a night and shoot in the 36-37% range from three (which is basically his career average) at some point this season, when he gets comfortable with playing again and gets back into game shape. I mean the last three games, he has scored 19, 21, and 24 shooting 1 of 7, 3 of 10, and 4 of 8 from 3 (so 32%). In other words, he is starting to find his shooting touch. He is getting to the line more and shooting pretty darn well from 2 point range.
He was always a terrible defender, but he is not a terrible offensive player and he is starting to show that again. He missed months with a hip injury, you don't just step on the court and are back to 100% in a couple of games with that type of injury. It takes time and Thomas will get there.