Author Topic: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from  (Read 9772 times)

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Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2018, 04:31:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Question: is there a difference between calling a country a “[crap]hole” vs a “[crap] show”

I’m asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2018, 04:52:05 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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In other news today, Trump during an intelligence meeting called out a "pretty Korean woman" and started harrassing her in the middle of it: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/trump-analyst-of-korean-heritage-should-negotiate-with-north-korea-nbc.html

Quote
President Donald Trump suggested in the Oval Office that a "pretty Korean" analyst's ethnicity should qualify her for negotiating with North Korea on behalf of the United States, NBC News reported Friday.

The woman, an intelligence analyst who had visited the White House to brief Trump on an impending hostage situation in Pakistan, was asked where "your people" were from by the president after multiple attempts to learn her ethnicity, sources told NBC.

After the woman answered that her parents are Korean, Trump reportedly suggested to another advisor in the room that the "pretty Korean lady" should be negotiating with North Korea.

[Edited. The first part of your post is tangentially on topic, but the latter half wasn’t. -RH]
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:01:59 PM by Roy H. »

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2018, 04:56:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Question: is there a difference between calling a country a “[crap]hole” vs a “[crap] show”

I’m asking for a friend.

Hole is a probably a bit worse, because show is more saying something is completely out of control with a less negative connotation than hole. Neither is appropriate for a president to describe another country though.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2018, 04:59:48 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Question: is there a difference between calling a country a “[crap]hole” vs a “[crap] show”

I’m asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.

Would, for instance, saying “Dorchester is a crap show” be any better or worse than “Dorchester is a crap hole”.

I don’t see a huge distinction. Both are a bit vulgar, neither is on its surface racist.


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Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2018, 05:04:56 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Question: is there a difference between calling a country a “[crap]hole” vs a “[crap] show”

I’m asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.

Would, for instance, saying “Dorchester is a crap show” be any better or worse than “Dorchester is a crap hole”.

I don’t see a huge distinction. Both are a bit vulgar, neither is on its surface racist.
Obama used his term to describe the happenings and situation created in Libya by the UK. Trump used his term to describe the countries themselves. In context its a big difference. Neither vulgar term should be used by a President in an open forum.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2018, 05:25:33 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Roy,

Do you disagree with any of this:

"This summer, I went to Kigali, and Nairobi and Lagos, and I went to Kampala and Abidjan and Dakar and Johannesburg and I saw great cities, and great people," Ujiri told ESPN on Friday. "And I went to visit the refugee camp in Dadaab, and I met good people and good families with plenty of hope. If those places are being referred to as ****holes, go visit those places, and go meet those people."

"I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's what inspiring leadership can be. What sense of hope are we giving people if you are calling where they live -- and where they're from -- a ****hole?

"I've spent a lot of time in the United States and Canada and I am grateful for the opportunities that I've been given by people, and the game of basketball, and the NBA. As leaders, I think we have to give people in many places a chance to have success, not continue to put those people down.

"We have to inspire people and give them a sense of hope. We need to bring people along, not ridicule and tear them down. This cannot be the message that we accept from the leader of the free world.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22062684/raptors-president-masai-ujiri-criticizes-president-donald-trump-reported-remark


Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2018, 05:29:02 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?

I don't think it makes you a racist.  And BTW Trump's comment (in and of itself) probably does not make him racist.  Those who call him racist are generally looking at a pattern of racially charged/insensitive remarks.  I don't believe Trump is a true racist (ie, one who uses power to consciously discriminate or oppress based on a person's race).   I think he is impulsive and jumps quickly at times to stereotypic conclusions.  Thus, he gives fuel to the fire to those who consider him racist.

That said, there are a few important distinctions that make your hypothetical comment different contextually than Trump's comment.  The most important being, simply, he is the POTUS and you are a Cblog poster (not to diminish the importance of that).   The things that he says are reflective of the country and he needs to be sensitive to American citizens and those around the world who come from these "s-holes" and yet are productive citizens.   2nd, his statement disparages predominantly  black/brown countries while essentially praising a fairly homogenously white country.  I admit it's "optics" to some extent in that, indeed, the specific country he refers to (Haiti) and some of the countries he included among African nations are generally poor. But it negates the reality that good, smart, productive and in some cases, quite desperate people seek a better life in America regardless of country of origin.   Probably better to show some sensitivity to people who live under difficult conditions and perhaps view America as a place where some people from those countries have thrived and contributed.

My guess is that when you call Roxbury, East Boston or Chelsea S-holes and by implication you disparage (in the Trump metaphor -- "we don't want you here") those who live there -- my guess is that even those town inhabitants or observers that understand your characterization might be very displeased with the blanket negativity of it.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2018, 05:44:41 PM »

Offline kiwiceltic

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From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2018, 05:50:47 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2018, 06:03:34 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy,

Do you disagree with any of this:

"This summer, I went to Kigali, and Nairobi and Lagos, and I went to Kampala and Abidjan and Dakar and Johannesburg and I saw great cities, and great people," Ujiri told ESPN on Friday. "And I went to visit the refugee camp in Dadaab, and I met good people and good families with plenty of hope. If those places are being referred to as ****holes, go visit those places, and go meet those people."

"I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's what inspiring leadership can be. What sense of hope are we giving people if you are calling where they live -- and where they're from -- a ****hole?

"I've spent a lot of time in the United States and Canada and I am grateful for the opportunities that I've been given by people, and the game of basketball, and the NBA. As leaders, I think we have to give people in many places a chance to have success, not continue to put those people down.

"We have to inspire people and give them a sense of hope. We need to bring people along, not ridicule and tear them down. This cannot be the message that we accept from the leader of the free world.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22062684/raptors-president-masai-ujiri-criticizes-president-donald-trump-reported-remark

I disagree with the notion that Johannesburg is not a crap hole. My sister-in-law is from there. I’ve been there. It’s a dirty, impoverished area. There isn’t a house in the city that doesn’t have gates surrounding it and bars on the windows. 

Great people, yes, many of them. Great city? No way. The city is corrupt , dangerous, filled with squalor.  I can share plenty of experiences.

I do think that inspiration is a positive thing, but at the same time, it’s not our job at this point to take care of the world’s poor. We already can’t take care of the folks we have here.



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Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2018, 06:31:15 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Good to know you want to work at helping those already impoverished and living amid violence in the USA.  That's something most people should be able to agree on.  Pretty bad job so far by everyone who has attempted to make it better.  Since neither laissez-faire approaches nor government handouts have solved it, my guess is that no one really knows the answer -- but comprehensive approaches are probably needed.  Complicating things by adding to the numbers of disadvantaged Americans doesn't make much sense.   But ignoring the value of and history of immigration is also not smart (or right) in my opinion.  Immigration reform is needed and we should be cautious about who comes here, while our POTUS should be smart enough not to make entry a litmus test having to do with race, religion or country of origin.  Anyway... change is needed but it is complicated and stereotyping, hyperbolizing and marginalizing the perspectives of others probably is a good road to status quo.       

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2018, 06:34:56 PM »

Offline kiwiceltic

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From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Are you saying that the poverty and violence in all those cities is solely driven by immigrants? Do you think if you removed those immigrants from the equation that all those neighborhoods would magically lift themselves above the poverty line??
Believe me the problems in those areas stretch far beyond immigration.

I'm just curious here, but have you actually spent much time travelling outside the USA? I'm not talking about a holiday in Cabo, actually travelling?

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2018, 06:48:33 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Are you saying that the poverty and violence in all those cities is solely driven by immigrants? Do you think if you removed those immigrants from the equation that all those neighborhoods would magically lift themselves above the poverty line??
Believe me the problems in those areas stretch far beyond immigration.

I'm just curious here, but have you actually spent much time travelling outside the USA? I'm not talking about a holiday in Cabo, actually travelling?

I'm not saying that at all about immigrants being the main cause of the problems in these big cities. Its mainly the policies of these cities. They have contributed to the break up of the family in many ways.

I'm not going to go into details because I will either get my post deleted or be called racist.

#1984
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:59:46 PM by rondohondo »

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2018, 07:08:10 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2018, 07:12:49 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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I've tried to stay out of this thread, and I refuse to get into any of the above. But this whole new saga makes me ashamed.

Yes our country has problems, but overall America is a pretty great opportunity for a large portion of those born here. And while some people don't take advantage of that, others flourish. Yet this president continuously does and says things that represent this country in a horrible light.

Say what you will about any previous president, but they never made me ashamed to be part of this country. He does.
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