Author Topic: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from  (Read 9786 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #180 on: January 13, 2018, 10:29:51 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 35335
  • Tommy Points: -27789
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Quote
And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

One is a first world nation? Trump just hosted the PM of one of those nations at the White House, so that nation was on his mind? One of those nations isnít a crap hole?


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #181 on: January 13, 2018, 10:31:16 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.

He gets upset about illegal Mexican immigration like a president should.

Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have a Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Haitian or Norwegian with a masters degree?

The answer to me is blatant regardless of the color of their skin.
He got upset that there are too many Indians on H1B visas. That has nothing to do with them being unskilled or illegal. In fact, he proposed a program that would have returned three quarter of a million people back to India, even though the industry is pretty adamant they can't fill those positions adequately, and unemployment in the US is at historic lows.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #182 on: January 13, 2018, 10:38:40 AM »

Online Erik

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 700
  • Tommy Points: 126
  • The voice of reason
i think you guys are missing the overall point here. He wants people with higher education. If the country's education system produces a 40% illiteracy rate, what does that tell you about the education of the rest of them? You think that the other 60% have PhDs? We should bias immigration towards countries with great educational systems... and there are a lot of them that are white minority.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2018, 10:46:57 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have an average Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Norwegian with a masters degree?
I'll address this separately, because it's an important point. Just because you let a Norwegian with a Master's degree in doesn't mean there's a job for him. In fact, schooling levels in the US are so high these days that the country is pretty capable of producing high-skilled workers.

The flip side of this coin is that when everyone gets a lot of schooling, there are fewer people that don't. It's probably counterproductive if the guy at Starbucks or the woman cleaning my house had a couple of advanced degrees.

And lastly, immigration from "craphole countries" is not about first-generation immigrants. In many respects, they're a lost generation. They'll come here at a latter age and with potentially limited knowledge of English so their prospects are questionable. However, being able to pick up your stuff and trek halfway across the world to start a family from nothing is an actual quality that has value -- as much as or maybe more than being able to make it through grad school. This is about the kids they're going to raise and the type of members of society those people are going to be.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2018, 10:51:22 AM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Kyrie Irving
  • Posts: 772
  • Tommy Points: 134
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties?

He did not say that. We can talk about "If he said this.." all day long, but what he said was racist.

I'm sure lots of people have said things that if they were framed differently would not be considered racist. That probably happens all the time to Trump. Where, if he'd only tweaked his comment a little, he'd sound like less of a racist. He just doesn't seem to not sound like a racist as often as he sounds like a racist, and his comment was racist, inherently, undeniably.

The Haitian Educational System yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere.[3] Haiti's literacy rate of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries. --Wikipedia

Whereas Norway is consistently top 20.

But yeah it's only because they're white.

Are you saying you think race had nothing to do with it? That he might go on to say, for example, we need to take fewer people from the ****hole parts of rural Ireland or Poland  and take more people from Mexico and Nigeria who are educated? I’m pretty sure that wasn’t it. He was lumping people together based on their country of origin, not treating them as individuals, and he picked countries based on race.

The whole idea of saying we don’t want people from broken countries is wrongheaded. There is a long tradition of ambitious people leaving the countries of their birth because they had no opportunity there. These people often came to America with no education because their countries had failed them, but worked hard to gain advancement for themselves or their kids. Others had education but no jobs. At our best, we didn’t say: you’re from a ****hole country, we don’t want you. We said: you had the spark and determination to make a new life. Welcome. Trump is the opposite.

As for Haitians, they are more likely to be working age than native Americans, and among working age people (18-65) they are more likely to hold a job.

And as for African immigrants, they are *more* educated than US natives. His resistance is emphatically not about education. He has a stereotypical and uninformed view of African immigrants, not rooted in reality. https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story,amp.html

I think Trump is characteristic of a lot of white thought about race in the US. He has no idea how the world of racial minorities really is because he has never tried to understand what the world looks like to them. He’s reflexively afraid and aversive, and tends to believe the worst of people who aren’t white. In other words, racist.


« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:59:00 AM by Sophomore »

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #185 on: January 13, 2018, 10:58:14 AM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

  • NCE
  • Marcus Smart
  • Posts: 205
  • Tommy Points: 27
I love how the disenfranchised worker who lost his 60k/yr job at the paperclip bending factory and refuses to go out and acquire new skills and training thinks the solution to all his woes is to import exclusively people that are infinitely more educated and qualified than himself.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #186 on: January 13, 2018, 10:59:23 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12760
  • Tommy Points: 1342
i think you guys are missing the overall point here. He wants people with higher education. If the country's education system produces a 40% illiteracy rate, what does that tell you about the education of the rest of them? You think that the other 60% have PhDs? We should bias immigration towards countries with great educational systems... and there are a lot of them that are white minority.

Actually, I honestly think you (and I) need more information.  I presume that every country produces highly intelligent and well-educated or highly educable individuals.  There are 11 million people in Haiti.  If only 1% met Trump's intelligence/education criteria, that would mean over 100,000 people.  Lots of people from ANY country in the world would be merit candidates meeting Trumps immigration criteria.  He just needs to acknowledge this and not disparage and denigrate.  Bring people together and not divide as he promised in his inaugural address.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #187 on: January 13, 2018, 11:03:47 AM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Kyrie Irving
  • Posts: 772
  • Tommy Points: 134
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.

He gets upset about illegal Mexican immigration like a president should.

Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have a Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Haitian or Norwegian with a masters degree?

The answer to me is blatant regardless of the color of their skin.
He got upset that there are too many Indians on H1B visas. That has nothing to do with them being unskilled or illegal. In fact, he proposed a program that would have returned three quarter of a million people back to India, even though the industry is pretty adamant they can't fill those positions adequately, and unemployment in the US is at historic lows.

A Haitian trying to come to the US is not 40% unlikely to know how to read. Immigration selects for people who are better educated and more highly motivated. To pick up and leave your home to go to a foreign country takes skills and resources. Haitian immigrants to the US are more likely to hold a job than native- born Americans.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #188 on: January 13, 2018, 11:07:53 AM »

Offline chicagoceltic

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 629
  • Tommy Points: 84
Personally I do not care one bit that the President used a curse word.  Truthfully, from what I understand, he was not inaccurate in his description of at least parts of Haiti and some African countries and I have use the same term to describe places, some in my own local geographic area.  To me, this would be a non-story, or a minor story, if President Trump merely referred to these countries as crapholes.  Unfortunately that is not the whole story and the bigger issue is the history of what he has said or tweeted.

President Trump did not just call these countries crapholes, he asked why we were letting people in from these crapholes.  That goes past just referring to the state of a place and is now passing judgement on people just because of where they come from.  Combine that with him reportedly recently saying something along the lines of “all Haitian have AIDS” and if Nigerians come here they “would never go back to their huts in Africa”, it is no longer just a matter of the President using crude language but rather him insulting a wide swath of people based soley on where they were born.  Is it racist?  Maybe not but it is in poor taste, insulting, predujiced and beneath the office of the President of the United States.

Yes, I know the President’s appeal to his core base of supporters is that he is not PC, that he talks like they do at the local bar etc, etc, etc.  That is all fine and dandy but I don’t want the loudmouth, bloviating drunk at the bar leading our country.  Whether his core supporters like it or not to be a successful President one has to have some sort of diplomacy and nuanced thought.  President Trump does not appear to have either.

President Trump’s rhetoric has long been divisive, petty and insulting.  He started his campaign by getting off his gilded elevator and insulting Mexicans.  He continued with petty name calling of other Republicans (Little Marco, Lyin’ Ted, Low Energy Jeb) and then of course to petty name calling of Democrats (Crooked Hillary, Pocohantas).  Since his election he seems to have targeted and insulted friends and foes alike.

In my opinion his rhetoric is dangerous both domestically and internationally.  Domestically, while he may very well not be racist (and I am not saying he is), I think his talk has emboldened and legitimized some bad actors.  I am not saying that that is/was his intent but it is a side effect of that tough, non-PC, shoot from the hips style that his supporters like so much.  The David Duke’s of the world have come out and all but said that Trump has legitimized their views.  While President Trump may not share their views I believe that his words and actions have made people feel comfortable enough to come out of the shadows to show their hateful and racist tendencies.  It has led to things like the furthering of the alt-right movement, people being comfortable marching and chanting hate speech in Virginia and children and adults thinking it is ok/fun/acceptable to wear jerseys with names like “Knee Grow” and “Coons” on their jerseys to a youth basketball tournament.

Internationally the danger is our relationships and standing in the world pecking order.  Not only is the President the leader of our country but he is the supposed leader of the free world.  The President has insulted our allies with his pettiness and actions.  Allied countries have had millions of people sign petitions to bar him from visiting and governments actually have had to legally debate the possibility of not allowing him to visit.  Granted, for diplomatic reasons that will never happen but it is very telling that they are having those discussions.  Our place as the leader of the free world is slipping away.  Merkel and Marcon are stepping up as the new leaders of the free world.  That is troubling.

Before anyone jumps in that I am just a liberal snowflake let me admit that I am a proud liberal and Democrat.  That being said, I am not alone and this concern is not a partisan concern.  Plenty of Republican leaders have come out and condemned many of Trump’s comments since the day he announced his candidacy for President.  So have leaders from all around the world, allies and enemies alike. 

The President’s words have consequences and I am afraid of those consequences…

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:52:55 PM by chicagoceltic »
Pub Draft

Sam N Ella's

At the Bar: The Most Interesting Man in the World
At the Door:  Hugh Hefner
On Stage:  O.A.R., Louis C.K., EDGAR! Special Drinks:  Irish Car Bomb, Martinis On Tap: Lite, Beamish, 3 Floyds Seasonal, Chimay Grand Reserve, Spotted Cow

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #189 on: January 13, 2018, 11:43:14 AM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

  • NCE
  • Marcus Smart
  • Posts: 205
  • Tommy Points: 27

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2018, 12:00:10 PM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Kyrie Irving
  • Posts: 772
  • Tommy Points: 134
I just think it’s strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I don’t think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.



2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.



5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondo’s perspective isn’t wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Let’s not be reductive here, assuming that race informs one’s opinion above all. That’s a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please don’t question or assume others’.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

It hasn't? I'm sorry. Thank you for being black like our savior Bill Russell. I'm sure you worked long and hard to be black.

As a fellow minority, no one cares what your race is. You may think everyone hates you and look for micro aggressions in basic conversation, but in reality, most people don't care where you come from and will respect you as long as you respect them. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can all move passed this society where everyone has to be offended, all the time.

When Donald Trump says people from ****hole countries, you may think that that's a whistle for some kind of racial prejudice, but in reality he's asking why we're taking the worst of the 3rd worlders with little to contribute day 1, when we should be taking the best of the best. I liken it to Harvard. Is it racist that they have a screening process? No, it's just common sense that the best country (school) should take the best immigrants (students). Again, this is coming from someone whose parents are immigrants.

Did you know that immigrants to the US from Africa are better educated than native-born Americans?

As for whether immigrants generally have something to contribute from day 1, did you know that Haitians in the US are more likely to be in the workforce than native born Americans?

In every country there are all sorts of people. There are well educated Haitians and poorly educated Englishmen. Hardworking Ethiopians and lazy Germans. By and large, people willing to pull up roots and move to a new country have more grit and determination- they showed it by their actions. 




« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:10:33 PM by Sophomore »

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2018, 01:17:08 PM »

Offline Amonkey

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
  • Tommy Points: 150
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.
Baby Jesus!

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2018, 01:33:39 PM »

Offline rondohondo

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10656
  • Tommy Points: 1082
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2018, 01:51:22 PM »

Offline Amonkey

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
  • Tommy Points: 150
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Again, if you are in a lottery system, you still need some means to show that you are a capable member of society. I have never heard of a system where they'll literally take anyone, with no background check or proof of income. Your grandma may not speak English, but by no means is that an indication of intelligence. Many Europeans speak multiple languages that may not include English. It took us years to get my grandma to come from Brazil, and this was after she was denied since she didn't have proof of owning property I. Brazil.

Also, how did your grandma put a strain on the welfare system? Did she rely on it? I would assume that she may have spent her retirement money here, which would be additional income coming to the States, or your uncle paid for her, which means there's no loss, or that she obtained legal documents to use welfare, which means the issue is not illegal immigration.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:02:34 PM by Amonkey »
Baby Jesus!

Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
« Reply #194 on: January 13, 2018, 02:06:59 PM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Kyrie Irving
  • Posts: 772
  • Tommy Points: 134
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:13:16 PM by Sophomore »