Author Topic: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder  (Read 2550 times)

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Offline celticsclay

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At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
hey the nonsensical winning argument again.  And just to repeat it. The Spurs have won over 73% of the over 50 games Kawhi has missed the last 3 seasons.

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Offline nickagneta

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.

Offline Moranis

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.
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Offline wayupnorth

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

Offline Monkhouse

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
I literally said it i think he is a better player..
Someone may compare their "achievement" ,rings, all-nbas ,1st teams all defense, wins
and it's exactly the reason KL is overrated because he did it under pop and spurs and Giannis is under Kid and bucks.

Okay well not even gonna bother arguing with you because I disagree wholeheartedly. You say it's cause KL did it under pop, but the fact pop entrusted someone like KL with the keys to the offense says a lot.. Regardless, it doesn't seem like you're gonna sway from your opinion so let's agree to disagree.
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Offline Monkhouse

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

TP. I agree. Giannis is great, but is he better than KL right now? Nah don't think so. Also you guys say KL is a system player, but when he's the only scoring in the playoffs, there's usually very small share of players who can put up his numbers while being a defensive stalwart. Also those who think Giannis is a better defender, clearly aren't even looking from the eyetest. He's great at weak side help defense and going for the block, but you cannot tell me Giannis is a better defender than KL. Come on that's foolish.
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Offline celticsclay

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

TP. I agree. Giannis is great, but is he better than KL right now? Nah don't think so. Also you guys say KL is a system player, but when he's the only scoring in the playoffs, there's usually very small share of players who can put up his numbers while being a defensive stalwart. Also those who think Giannis is a better defender, clearly aren't even looking from the eyetest. He's great at weak side help defense and going for the block, but you cannot tell me Giannis is a better defender than KL. Come on that's foolish.

Thank you. I found the comments arguing giannis was as good as kl at defense particularly humorous