Author Topic: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder  (Read 4068 times)

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Online Monkhouse

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
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Offline Moranis

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year. 

Offline celticsclay

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year.

So you got the guy (Leonard) that has won 2 out of the last 3 defensive player of the year awards and has made 3 straight all defensive first teams as possibly the same or worse at defensive than a guy that has made one all defensive second team?

Offline wayupnorth

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year.

So you got the guy (Leonard) that has won 2 out of the last 3 defensive player of the year awards and has made 3 straight all defensive first teams as possibly the same or worse at defensive than a guy that has made one all defensive second team?

Sure appears that way.

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Giannis this year has a TS% of 62.1%.

Kawhi has had years of TS% of 61.6%, 61% and 60.2%.

The only reason Giannis has this barely higher TS% in this half year than Kawhi has done in 3 years is because he is going to the line 11 times a game. He has been given by the refs the same star treatment that Lebron and Harden...barrel into the lane and initiate contact and get the foul called in your favor every time.

And why does Giannis take this offensive approach? Because everyone is backing off him daring him to shoot from deep because he is awful at it. Only 8.8% of The Freak's FGA are three pointers and he is hitting them at a 27% rate.

Leonard has a much more diversified offensive arsenal and yet remains elite in his efficiency and Kawhi is the better defensive player. For these reasons I think KL is the better player.

Offline Moranis

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Giannis is taking 9.2 FT's a game.  He is getting to the line slightly less frequently this year then he was last year (at least as a % of total shots).  His TS% is also very high because he is shooting an insane 57.9% from 2.  He has improved that every single year in the league.  Leonard hasn't shot above 53% from 2 since his first 3 seasons in the league. 

At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball. 

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.


Offline Moranis

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.

Offline playdream

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
Ever heard a player named Shaq?

Offline PhoSita

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At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
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Offline playdream

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
I literally said it i think he is a better player..
Someone may compare their "achievement" ,rings, all-nbas ,1st teams all defense, wins
and it's exactly the reason KL is overrated because he did it under pop and spurs and Giannis is under Kid and bucks.

Offline celticsclay

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
Ever heard a player named Shaq?

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or a joke. Are we saying it doesn't matter he can't shoot outside cause of Shaq? If so, bravo

Offline Moranis

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Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?

Offline Moranis

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At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
hey the nonsensical winning argument again.  And just to repeat it. The Spurs have won over 73% of the over 50 games Kawhi has missed the last 3 seasons.