Author Topic: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder  (Read 4067 times)

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Offline celticsclay

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It is also just strange to add up regular season winning percentages for a handful of games for a good coached team with other talent as an argument.

Gobert is a pretty good player? The jazz are 6-12 with him playing this year. They are 10 and 12 when he doesn't. Does that mean he has less value?

The Celtics are going to win close to 60 games this year most likely. How many will they win next year? 60 again with Hayward?

Sure you notice a crazy difference with a team like the Cavs that have built their entire roster around the talent and skillset of Lebron (3 point shooters that can hit the open 3 off of Lebron's penetrations and doubles). So when he doesn't play they become a truly awful team. That doesn't mean someone like Love is an awful player.

Just cause the Celtics and Spurs have great systems with good coaching and can perform above their talent level, doesn't make a player like Hayward or Leonard any less valuable.

Offline Moranis

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.

Offline wayupnorth

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Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).   Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.

Really great post.

Offline celticsclay

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Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).   Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.

Really great post.

tp to you both

Offline footey

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Given what KL did in the 2014 NBA Finals (Finals MVP, outplayed Lebron as I recall), and how well Spurs looked in game 1 of last year's conf finals vs. GSW before getting injured, to me, a healthy KL is in the same class as Lebron and Durant, and a notch above Giannis (who hasn't done anything of note other than fill up a stat sheet; let's get real). 

The issue is his health. If he is healthy, he is a top 3 NBA player.  Poll NBA GM's and pretty sure vast majority would agree with that ranking. Now Giannis may project to have greater future value. I get that. But in a play-off series today, I'd take Leonard.

Online nickagneta

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player

Offline Moranis

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.

Online nickagneta

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

Offline wayupnorth

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

Offline celticsclay

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

Online rondofan1255

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Offline Moranis

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.
I never said he was inferior because of the Spurs record.  I only brought up their record because others were discussing the Spurs system. I used their record to show that the Spurs system produced a very good team when Leonard didn't play.  I then said I believed Leonard was the 4th best SF because Leonard wasn't as athletically gifted as the top 3 and doesn't run the Spurs offense this making him a more incomplete offensive player.  After my initial post the Spurs and Bucks record was discussed a lot which is why I kept talking about it.

So in sum, I don't believe Leonard is the 5th best player in the world because the Spurs are a 73% winning team when he doesn't play, I believe he is the 5th best player in the world because there are 4 players that are better than him.

Offline celticsclay

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

Online Monkhouse

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
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Offline playdream

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I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so