Author Topic: Can you add Davis without giving up Horford and not be killed by the luxury tax?  (Read 1745 times)

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Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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We'd need to add two of Brown/Tatum/Lakers Pick for sure.

You wouldn't trade Jaylen Brown, Lakers pick and contracts (Morris, etc.) for Anthony Davis? Seriously? Anthony Davis is a generational player. Jaylen Brown and 1 of the 5 draftees you mention could be but aren't guaranteed to be. I take the guaranteed generational player over a 50/50 chance of finding one in JB/Lakers pick all day, every day.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 09:33:14 PM by Fireworks_Boom! »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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We're not trading for Davis, period.

Can't do it w/o dealing Horford for salary, which I DO NOT want to do, and Pelicans will understandably ask for two of Lakers Pick/Tatum/Brown, and if that LAL pick lands 2-5, I honestly want to keep it and add ANY of Ayton/Bagley/Doncic/Porter/Bamba to this core + healthy Hayward next season.

Also any Davis deal would definitely also require adding Morris, Rozier and one of Yabusele/Semi to the deal likely, which guts our bench. A Davis trade is just unlikely because it would now require gutting our team and Davis's salary is high now (hard to match). And I'm saying that assuming we DON'T trade Horford. We'd need to add two of Brown/Tatum/Lakers Pick for sure.

What if you could trade Hayward and pieces (future firsts) for A. Davis?  Totally doable.

Offline Forza Juventus

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Why do fans care about the tax? Last time I checked the Celtics don't send us a portion of their tax savings. I expect the Celtics to pay what it takes to win and prioritize winning and improving the team over profits. They already made plenty of money from Bain Capital, the NBA has never been more successful and they could sell this team for a couple billion dollars if they wanted to.

I think they are ambitious and their priority is winning. I trust our ownership to pay the tax when we have to and if they don't it is fair to criticize them.
Azzurri | Juventus | Boston Celtics | Kentucky Basketball

Offline Androslav

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I have been in "AD to Boston" camp since he was at Kentucky.
I saw a new KG in him, a generational player.
But now considering all the things I have considerably cooled on the idea. Presuming the deal would be done in the summer.
Why?

Well, there are many issues;
1) The matching salaries complicate a lot as we might have to give an extra "keeper" just to make the deal work.

2) Value of AD is huge, he is young, plays great and has a long-term deal. Meaning they will ask for "hills and meadows" in return. Sure he is an all NBA performer, they outta. But giving a high pick, Tatum/Brown and then probably a lot more due to salary matching is a lot. Not that AD is not worth it - it is the opportunity cost.

"Opportunity cost refers to a benefit that a person could have received, but gave up, to take another course of action. Stated differently, an opportunity cost represents an alternative given up when a decision is made. This cost is, therefore, most relevant for two mutually exclusive events. In investing, it is the difference in return between a chosen investment and one that is necessarily passed up."

Maybe what would have to give back for him is as good or better, while being more sound financially in the long term.

3) Tax issues will come in place very soon, and it projects as something that is here to stay, like forever :). Davis deal makes our sheets a lot harder to manage. I know that he is AD (the pterodactyl of basketball) but this is a fact.

4) I wrote here; http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94501.0
And there were many good responses, how that even without AD we are projected to have 5 max players (4 guys actually getting the max) just two years from now (if we don't win the chip). That is of course with the exclusion of the LaKings pick/player. 5 max guys is a solid base to compete for a chip, to say the least.

5) AD health is... shaking like a twig in the wind.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27982/operation-rescue-kit
He is the guy that gets injured at a crazy rate. Each fall, each contact, each contested flight, each landing is a jeopardy. He is at the sad/funny level of being injury prone. He is not tragic as D.Rose, but he can leave in the 2nd qtr of any game without returning.
He already had 3 concussions in his career. The worst medical staff in the league is taking care of him. Definitely not a good track record.
https://www.foxsports.com/nba/anthony-davis-player-injuries
Favors boxed him out to the ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YONyBP455ws

6) Who says we need another big, let's outwing the league to the death.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 08:17:26 AM by Androslav »
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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The following trade would work:

Marcus Smart (if you're committed to not resigning him)
Jaylen Brown (if you're more committed to Tatum knowing 1 of 2 goes in this trade)
Marcus Morris (I like the development of Ojeleye/Yabusele on rookie scale contracts)
Aron Baynes (would be behind Davis/Horford for minutes at C assuming Horford gets most minutes at C position)

for

Anthony Davis

Even with the package above, I believe NOP would need to have the Lakers pick also included. That is a VERY large package but is a package which would work without the salary of Horford being included.

Our new team:

PG: Irving ($20.1)
SG: Hayward ($31.2)
SF: Tatum ($6.7)
PF: Davis ($25.4)
C: Horford ($28.9)

Bench: Theis ($1.38), Rozier ($3.1), Ojeleye ($1.38), Yabusele ($2.7), Larkin (est. $3), 2018 1st round draft pick ($1.36 assuming we land at pick 28)

Total Salary: $125m+ considering the roster above only fills 11 spots (so this would require ownership to go into luxury tax which Wyc & Co. have indicated and shown willingness to do previously)
Salary Cap: $101m

Looking at the $125m+ salary cap threshold which the roster above would project to be, this would land us in the vincinity of most of the top contenders in the league with GSW ($128m), Toronto ($124m), WAS ($121m) and CLE (currently $108m but with moves/adds/changes will rise above this if they want to keep LBJ). MIA is slated for a $144m salary cap. Ouch!

IMO, the better time to make such a move would be 2019-2020 when the caps projects to rise to $108m. This would leave us some room to fill roster underneath the $125m zone.



Offline tstorey_97

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I wonder how badly Ainge wants Davis.

As of today, we have a young team with perhaps, another pick(s) to build with.

Tatums' third year and Brown's fourth Celtics should have measurables for title contention. Warriors will eventually face some break up issues....maybe not.

Somewhere over the next 30 months another player is added and the Hayward, Irving + Young guys is figured out.

Timing for Davis may not be right yet. Can't do what you can't do. You know Ainge has his ducks in a row...The Celtics, unlike the Warriors and Cavs, are going to...

"Get better with time."

Would be fun if Laker's pick hits and the kid is a big.


Offline saltlover

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I wonder how badly Ainge wants Davis.

As of today, we have a young team with perhaps, another pick(s) to build with.

Tatums' third year and Brown's fourth Celtics should have measurables for title contention. Warriors will eventually face some break up issues....maybe not.

Somewhere over the next 30 months another player is added and the Hayward, Irving + Young guys is figured out.

Timing for Davis may not be right yet. Can't do what you can't do. You know Ainge has his ducks in a row...The Celtics, unlike the Warriors and Cavs, are going to...

"Get better with time."

Would be fun if Laker's pick hits and the kid is a big.

Iím sure Ainge wants Anthony Davis very badly.  Heís a year-in, year-out MVP candidate.  A starting 5 of Kyrie, Jaylen, Hayward, AD, and Horford would unquestionably be the best in the league, even compared to the Warriors.

I question if a trade can be made that works under the constraints of the CBA, and I question how much luxury tax ownership is willing to pay, but I donít question that Ainge wants Davis, because how could he not?
2018 Mock Trade Deadline:

Pelicans: Davis, Holiday, Vucevic, Rondo, Clarkson, Nance, Hart, Moore, Ilyasova, Ajinca, Hill, Miller, Jackson, Dotson, Dakari Johnson

Warriors:  KD, Steph, Klay, Draymomd, Iggy, Zaza, Young, Livingston, McGee, West, McCaw, Jones, Casspi, Jones, Looney

Google for picks.

Offline Vermont Green

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The following trade would work:

Marcus Smart (if you're committed to not resigning him)
Jaylen Brown (if you're more committed to Tatum knowing 1 of 2 goes in this trade)
Marcus Morris (I like the development of Ojeleye/Yabusele on rookie scale contracts)
Aron Baynes (would be behind Davis/Horford for minutes at C assuming Horford gets most minutes at C position)

for

Anthony Davis

Our new team:

PG: Irving ($20.1)
SG: Hayward ($31.2)
SF: Tatum ($6.7)
PF: Davis ($25.4)
C: Horford ($28.9)


That is a good team but I feel like Hayward is out of position and Horford is too expensive and a bit redundant with Davis (nit picking I know).  I would trade Tatum over Brown so that Hayward can play his natural position (even though Tatum is the likely better player) and then I would rather trade Horford and keep Baynes, Morris, and Smart for the better depth.

I don't think NOP does either trade for what it is worth.

Online Phantom255x

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We're not trading for Davis, period.

Can't do it w/o dealing Horford for salary, which I DO NOT want to do, and Pelicans will understandably ask for two of Lakers Pick/Tatum/Brown, and if that LAL pick lands 2-5, I honestly want to keep it and add ANY of Ayton/Bagley/Doncic/Porter/Bamba to this core + healthy Hayward next season.

Also any Davis deal would definitely also require adding Morris, Rozier and one of Yabusele/Semi to the deal likely, which guts our bench. A Davis trade is just unlikely because it would now require gutting our team and Davis's salary is high now (hard to match). And I'm saying that assuming we DON'T trade Horford. We'd need to add two of Brown/Tatum/Lakers Pick for sure.

What if you could trade Hayward and pieces (future firsts) for A. Davis?  Totally doable.

And why the hell would we trade Hayward?? Seriously?!?
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Online Phantom255x

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I wonder how badly Ainge wants Davis.

As of today, we have a young team with perhaps, another pick(s) to build with.

Tatums' third year and Brown's fourth Celtics should have measurables for title contention. Warriors will eventually face some break up issues....maybe not.

Somewhere over the next 30 months another player is added and the Hayward, Irving + Young guys is figured out.

Timing for Davis may not be right yet. Can't do what you can't do. You know Ainge has his ducks in a row...The Celtics, unlike the Warriors and Cavs, are going to...

"Get better with time."

Would be fun if Laker's pick hits and the kid is a big.

Iím sure Ainge wants Anthony Davis very badly.  Heís a year-in, year-out MVP candidate.  A starting 5 of Kyrie, Jaylen, Hayward, AD, and Horford would unquestionably be the best in the league, even compared to the Warriors.

I question if a trade can be made that works under the constraints of the CBA, and I question how much luxury tax ownership is willing to pay, but I donít question that Ainge wants Davis, because how could he not?

Hey @salt, PRETEND the Lakers Pick lands #3. How much $$$ would that account for in a hypothetical Davis trade this summer? What about pick #2?
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Offline saltlover

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I wonder how badly Ainge wants Davis.

As of today, we have a young team with perhaps, another pick(s) to build with.

Tatums' third year and Brown's fourth Celtics should have measurables for title contention. Warriors will eventually face some break up issues....maybe not.

Somewhere over the next 30 months another player is added and the Hayward, Irving + Young guys is figured out.

Timing for Davis may not be right yet. Can't do what you can't do. You know Ainge has his ducks in a row...The Celtics, unlike the Warriors and Cavs, are going to...

"Get better with time."

Would be fun if Laker's pick hits and the kid is a big.

Iím sure Ainge wants Anthony Davis very badly.  Heís a year-in, year-out MVP candidate.  A starting 5 of Kyrie, Jaylen, Hayward, AD, and Horford would unquestionably be the best in the league, even compared to the Warriors.

I question if a trade can be made that works under the constraints of the CBA, and I question how much luxury tax ownership is willing to pay, but I donít question that Ainge wants Davis, because how could he not?

Hey @salt, PRETEND the Lakers Pick lands #3. How much $$$ would that account for in a hypothetical Davis trade this summer? What about pick #2?

Depends where the salary cap ends up for the exact figure, but about $6.5 and $7.3 million.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline:

Pelicans: Davis, Holiday, Vucevic, Rondo, Clarkson, Nance, Hart, Moore, Ilyasova, Ajinca, Hill, Miller, Jackson, Dotson, Dakari Johnson

Warriors:  KD, Steph, Klay, Draymomd, Iggy, Zaza, Young, Livingston, McGee, West, McCaw, Jones, Casspi, Jones, Looney

Google for picks.

Online spikelovetheCelts

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I am all for not getting Davis with assets. If we get the Lakers pick we can get a big. I think we will have the horses to win the East Next year and compete with Houston or GSW in the Finals.  Brown is no AD but he is getting better and better. Tatum will be unstoppable in year 3.  If we want AD let's just sign him and let Horford go.
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Offline GreenEnvy

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The more I think about it....

If the offer was Brown, Horford, and the LAL pick.... I think I do it.

Itís definitely a lot, and probably an overpay. But ya gotta give something to get something.

Kyrie/Hayward/Davis is as good a Big Three as you can make.

Allows you cap flexibility to resign Smart and/or use MLE on a SG.

It would essentially be Isaiah, Horford, 2016 #3, and 2017 #1 for Kyrie, AD, and 2017 #3. Younger, bigger, more talented.

Yeah, Iíve convinced myself I would pull the trigger on that deal.
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Offline JBcat

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I am all for not getting Davis with assets. If we get the Lakers pick we can get a big. I think we will have the horses to win the East Next year and compete with Houston or GSW in the Finals.  Brown is no AD but he is getting better and better. Tatum will be unstoppable in year 3.  If we want AD let's just sign him and let Horford go.

It doesnít work that way.  Even when Horfordís contract expires weíll still be over the cap.  It will be a long time again when we have max cap space.

Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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The more I think about it....

If the offer was Brown, Horford, and the LAL pick.... I think I do it.

Itís definitely a lot, and probably an overpay. But ya gotta give something to get something.

Kyrie/Hayward/Davis is as good a Big Three as you can make.

Allows you cap flexibility to resign Smart and/or use MLE on a SG.

It would essentially be Isaiah, Horford, 2016 #3, and 2017 #1 for Kyrie, AD, and 2017 #3. Younger, bigger, more talented.

Yeah, Iíve convinced myself I would pull the trigger on that deal.

TP. In this scenario, do we resign Baynes (I suppose we would have the cap space)? I like his, Theis, Ojeleye and Yabusele's grit in the paint.) AD plays C in small ball rotations and PF in normal rotations.