Author Topic: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)  (Read 5499 times)

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Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2017, 04:04:30 PM »

Offline eja117

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.


What Luke learned, in large part from Rey, is what helped him attain true peace and disappear into the force. It was a new twist on the old interaction of master and apprentice we saw in the past, with many layers. Really well written and perfectly executed imo.

If she showed up, Luke welcomed her, and told he she was his daughter and said lets train to take down Snoke, it would have been a totally lame, cheese fest.

In the long run, if you want the franchise to continue into the future and maintain its strength, you need to proceed forward with the story instead of retelling the same old story with new people.
Ex.....act.....ly

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2017, 09:32:26 PM »

Offline eja117

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So in between viewings of Star Wars and Shane it just occurred to me that maybe it's symbolic that the lightsaber that Anakin used to kill younglings was cut in half

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2017, 12:38:24 AM »

Online gouki88

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Awful. Really really awful.

Couldn't be more apparent that a) Disney had effectively no lore guys on hand, b) the writers were completely clueless, and c) that the new director probably didn't watch episode 7.

The amount of stupid plot holes, awful script writing and generally nonsensical story made this one of the least enjoyable movies I've seen in a while, especially considering the hype.

Don't get me started on the pathetic failure that was the way they handled Snoke. Dear god

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2017, 04:53:39 AM »

Offline Mr October

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Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2017, 07:35:27 AM »

Offline eja117

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Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.
That is an interesting theory. The film definitely lends itself towards some interpretation

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2017, 08:13:08 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.



Glad to hear it Mr. October!! I find that the layers to the story are a lot to take in all in one viewing. That makes it easy to dismiss a lot of stuff at first, but its also what makes it such a great movie. TP for giving in an honest second chance.

I agree completely that Luke never did conquer the darkness in him. He was also always prone to impulse, much more than past master's like Yoda or Obi Wan. Him briefly contemplating to kill Ben in his sleep is totally in line with his character. He realized this after what happened, and shut himself off from the force and from everyone to prevent himself from being tempted again.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2017, 02:14:29 PM »

Offline eja117

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Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2017, 03:23:31 PM »

Offline blink

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So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.


I totally disagree with the thought that he didn't become a powerful jedi master.  We don't know what even defines a jedi 'master' in the post return of of the jedi world.  Luke basically did the most powerful thing we have ever seen a jedi do with the jedi astral projection / avatar thing.  We know Snoke was seriously afraid of Luke, as was Kylo.  You don't unload the kind of firepower Kylo does on Luke if you don't completely fear him.

I don't believe having a student turn to the dark side = not powerful master.  Both Yoda and Obiwan had students that turned to the dark side, are they not powerful jedi masters?  I would say they are the two most powerful ones.

I thought the Luke becoming one with the force was kind of a cop out for the writers.  It is a cliche to have the wise mentor die or in star wars disappear into the force.  I think that Rian should have found a way to make the Rey - Luke connection stronger and have Rey have more training before having Luke exit.  It completely takes away from what was set up in the Force Awakens.  IE Rey has a very powerful connection to Anakin and Luke, implied as a family connection.  I think to have Luke not train Rey (lets be straight up, he didn't train her in The Last Jedi) and not build their relationship completely derails the strong connection hinted (like a hammer on our heads) in the Force Awakens.  Maybe that connection between Rey and Luke will be strengthened in episode 9, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I think it is idiotic that Rian didn't get more direction from the story story group about the big story issues that needed to get resolved:  Rey parents, Snoke going out like a punk, Luke dying / becoming one with the force.  Rian claimed that they left it all up to him.  Rian is either lying about deciding all of that on his own, or the star wars story group doesn't know what it is doing.



Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2017, 04:18:13 PM »

Offline eja117

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I disliked the fish nurses. There. I said it.

I would have made them more like the Selkath

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2017, 04:38:50 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I hated Leia floating back to the ship after they got blown up, that was annoying. 

I loved the fact that Luke feet didnt make the marks in the salt in retrospect, good touch. 

Still struggling with why Rey is good with the force and  lightsaber despite little to no actual training.   Comparing Luke raising his Xwing from the swamp and rey with the boulders is a little weird. 
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Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2017, 10:06:00 PM »

Online Birdman

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Just saw it...I give it a 6 out of 10...little disappointed in it..really I don't see how they can go forward with same old plot..but with a billion dollar money maker I sure they will continue Star Wars for years to come
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Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2017, 10:55:08 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Just saw it...I give it a 6 out of 10...little disappointed in it..really I don't see how they can go forward with same old plot..but with a billion dollar money maker I sure they will continue Star Wars for years to come

I agree mostly, though I wasn't disappointed. Maybe we had different expectations. I assume the movies are going to be Jar Jar Binksy. I think it was 14 years ago when I came to the conclusion that its going to be hard for Star Wars to regain the buzz from the late 70's/early 80's.

This movie was good. Probably one of the best. Each successive movie has improved CGI, so its hard to objectively have a "best" Star Wars movie. The first 3 were all awesome, Revenge of the Sith was good and I liked Rogue One.

8/10


Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2017, 07:05:53 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Although just because you went to a movie to have a good time doesn't mean you will have a good time. Force awakens was pretty good. rogue one was very good. Last Jedi was bad.

The central plot of of trying to outrun the bad guys while a hero goes to a casino for help was like a bad plot out of the 1980s battlestar gallactica. I didn't know which character I was supposed to feel attached too. There was no emotional investment. Characters and plot points resolved too quickly. Too many lame jokes, like a shirtless Kylo Ren... The lame joes felt more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars.

And most of all, this movie tried to ruin Luke Skywalker and all the triumphs of the rebellion in Return of the Jedi.  Luke is a failed teacher, attempted murderer, grumpy loser, and a jerk. Great, that's not very entertaining. So much for the mythology and hero's journey that made the original trilogy so great.

Anyway, if you liked it cool. Enjoy. Adventure movies in particular are indeed made for popcorn entertainment. But if someone doesn't like it, don't point the finger at the viewer for having a bad experience. There are many more reasons than what I listed for a person to not like this movie.

Agree with most of this, especially the bolded part. I was literally thinking the same thing about Guardians of the Galaxy.

The slapstick jokes, the manic pace, the remarkable exotic fantasy locales, all of it reminded me of GotG. Except not nearly as good.

And it just didn't feel like Star Wars.

I wouldn't mind seeing an offshoot film in this style. It reminds me a bit of "Alien Resurrection" in that it is an OK movie that doesn't feel cohesive with the rest of its universe. As its own standalone film that would've been OK. But when you're handling Luke, Leia, a very earnest Rey, etc, this style just doesn't fit.

The movie gave me little reason to care about the characters, aside from Rey. The First Order are buffoons (though at least their evil is slightly explained hin this one). Snoke is basically a buffoon. Kylo Ren is pretty much a buffoon. Their machinations remind me of some Saturday morning cartoons (the writers seem almost aware of this, as though they are mocking Abrams' horrible writing from Force Awakens). And the Alliance is silly and comically underpowered, considering they should theoretically have a ton of support after dethroning Palpatine and Vader. So what is at stake here exactly?

And even if I did care about the characters, the action scenes were so manic and nonsensical that it was hard to con myself into believing there was ever any real danger. Compared to the original trilogy, or to an action masterpiece like "Mad Max Fury Road" this just seems cartoonish and flat.

I suppose there is some truth about the murkiness between good and evil, and there is truth about the pointlessness of endless war... and yet we are still expected to root unconditionally for the "good guys." And there has always been murkiness in the series anyways. Lando and Han are shady characters. Even Obi-Wan has his secrets.

I don't want to be too negative, as there was a lot to like in this movie, the fantasy elements were interesting and creative (especially Luke's island), the acting was better than Force Awakens, and the story made a lot more sense, probably due to JJ Abrams not writing this one, IMO he is the worst writer in Hollywood. But Rian Johnson still had to clean up some of the mess Abrams left behind, ie a poorly explained first order, a whiny emo villain, Luke's motivations for jumping ship etc. Overall IMO it just didn't work, especially as a sequel to the original trilogy.

Edit:

I do like that they took risks with this film. I like the feeling of upending expectations. But the results and overall tone didn't quite work.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 07:44:15 PM by kraidstar »

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2017, 08:50:52 PM »

Online Sketch5

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I hated Leia floating back to the ship after they got blown up, that was annoying. 

I loved the fact that Luke feet didnt make the marks in the salt in retrospect, good touch. 

Still struggling with why Rey is good with the force and  lightsaber despite little to no actual training.   Comparing Luke raising his Xwing from the swamp and rey with the boulders is a little weird.

With the Sith there are only two because they can pull more from the Force so to speak. There use to be Thousands, but then on of the Sith lords decided they would be stronger if there was only two Sith and a few force wielders. This could be the same for Rey. Were the Force is using her to reboot the light, and since she's one of the few who are trying to tap into it, it's all coming to her.

You can say, well why didn't that happen to Luke? Two reasons. He had a lot of self doubt where Rey is more willing to open herself up. Second, they hadn't written the thing about the Sith and there being two yet. LOL

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2017, 09:43:48 PM »

Offline eja117

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Yoda stated Luke failed because he didn't believe it. It's not so different from Jesus' statement about being able to move mountains if you have the faith of a mustard seed.

Rey, by comparison has a tremendous amount of faith. She isn't messing around with the force. She's using it to save her friends.

She sorta flies the Falcoln similarly.  Also Luke lived in an era where the jedi have been wiped out and hardly knows of them.

Rey grows up in an era when the Jedi have defeated the empire.