Author Topic: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)  (Read 5518 times)

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Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2017, 01:24:12 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Although just because you went to a movie to have a good time doesn't mean you will have a good time. Force awakens was pretty good. rogue one was very good. Last Jedi was bad.

The central plot of of trying to outrun the bad guys while a hero goes to a casino for help was like a bad plot out of the 1980s battlestar gallactica. I didn't know which character I was supposed to feel attached too. There was no emotional investment. Characters and plot points resolved too quickly. Too many lame jokes, like a shirtless Kylo Ren... The lame joes felt more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars.

And most of all, this movie tried to ruin Luke Skywalker and all the triumphs of the rebellion in Return of the Jedi.  Luke is a failed teacher, attempted murderer, grumpy loser, and a jerk. Great, that's not very entertaining. So much for the mythology and hero's journey that made the original trilogy so great.

Anyway, if you liked it cool. Enjoy. Adventure movies in particular are indeed made for popcorn entertainment. But if someone doesn't like it, don't point the finger at the viewer for having a bad experience. There are many more reasons than what I listed for a person to not like this movie.

I disagree with your take on Luke. He is far from a jerk, he is too caring if anything. He sacrifices himself to save Lea and what is left of the resistance, and makes it a point to comfort her through his spectral self despite the cost it takes on him when doing so. He is a jerk the same way Yoda was when he first met him. The portrayal of Luke was outstanding. He is at the same point Obi Wan was when we first saw both characters in Episode IV. He is too hurt with his past failure of Kylo Ren going to the dark side to allow himself to help anyone, like Obi Wan was after he failed with Vader. The twist this story takes from there reflects what Yoda tells him, one of the best lines of the film imo "The greatest teacher, failure is Luke. We are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all true masters."

The past failure is the best lesson of all, it is what will make the next generation even greater if we pass on that lesson instead of hiding it.

This portrayal of Luke also shows that the legend of Luke Skywalker is having a tremendous impact across the galaxy, inspiring young kids everywhere. As with all heroes and legends though, the reality is different.

In the end we see Luke demonstrate the greatest, most impressive command of the Force we have ever seen, and then go off after becoming one with the Force at peace, with future purpose. Powerful stuff.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 01:31:19 PM by hpantazo »

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2017, 01:31:07 PM »

Offline Mr October

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It was a jerk move to flippantly toss the light saber over the cliff after Rey hands it to him. And then regularly scold her and slam doors on her etc. he behaved like an immature teenager. Obi wan was a failed teacher, but he carried himself with dignity. Is it too much for Luke to carry himself with dignity. And yet still be resistant to get get involved with the force and resistance?

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2017, 01:32:04 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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It was a jerk move to flippantly toss the light saber over the cliff after Rey hands it to him. And then regularly scold her and slam doors on her etc. he behaved like an immature teenager. Obi wan was a failed teacher, but he carried himself with dignity. Is it too much for Luke to carry himself with dignity. And yet still be resistant to get get involved with the force and resistance?

Did you not see Yoda's behavior when Luke first met him? People learn these reactions from their teachers and their experiences. It was his way of protecting Rey.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2017, 01:36:08 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2017, 01:41:00 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.

I think you should rewatch the Empire Stikes Back then. At first, Yoda was a total jerk, with a complete lack of class who also looked mentally and physically incompetent. He portrayed himself that way on purpose to see how Luke would react to him. Luke of course had no patience and it did not start off well.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2017, 01:47:55 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.

I think you should rewatch the Empire Stikes Back then. At first, Yoda was a total jerk, with a complete lack of class who also looked mentally incompetent. He portrayed himself that way on purpose to see how Luke would react to him.

I thought your arguement was that Luke was far from a jerk.

I dsagree on your take of Yoda. I think he was being playful as a way of testing Luke. He still invited Luke into his house for a warm meal and took him out of the rain.

Hey if you like Last Jedi, please enjoy. I am not trying to change anyone's opinion. I didn't like it for the opinions that I listed. I didn't like how Luke was portrayed. If you did, cool, enjoy.

I just don't want someone to say that a viewer is wrong if they didn't enjoy a particular movie. Entertainment is subjective.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2017, 02:04:19 PM »

Online eja117

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2017, 02:23:35 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2017, 03:00:49 PM »

Online eja117

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2017, 03:05:20 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.


I agree with Eja. What Luke learned, in large part from Rey, is what helped him attain true peace and disappear into the force. It was a new twist on the old interaction of master and apprentice we saw in the past, with many layers. Really well written and perfectly executed imo.

If she showed up, Luke welcomed her, and told he she was his daughter and said lets train to take down Snoke, it would have been a totally lame, cheese fest.

In the long run, if you want the franchise to continue into the future and maintain its strength, you need to proceed forward with the story instead of retelling the same old story with new people.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2017, 03:19:34 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasnít. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i donít like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didnít like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. Thatís my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just donít dismiss others because they didnít like it. Whatís the point in that?





Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2017, 03:38:13 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Letís try to alter course by offering celebration of what was good! Hereís some:

The contrast of red ground under white salt looked beautiful during the battle.

The salt jackles looked cool.

The reunion of key characters was great.

I was glad to see more of Poe in this movie.

I want to be respectful of the joy many of you had with the movie. Just donít tell those of us who didnít like it that we are wrong to feel that way.

Go Celtics!



Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2017, 03:56:31 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasnít. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i donít like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didnít like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. Thatís my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just donít dismiss others because they didnít like it. Whatís the point in that?


No need to get defensive, nobody intended to dismiss your opinion. Your opinion is your right and your perspective. We are only giving our opinions and perspectives on the movie and the particular points in it that you brought up. That's how a discussion progresses. I think there is a great deal of depth to the movie that people can easily miss at first. I gave some detailed examples of it. You are free to describe why you think differently. We brought up many detailed reasons explaining our perspectives.

That's the great thing about something with such a widespread fanbase, there will be many varied opinions.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2017, 03:57:37 PM »

Online eja117

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I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldnít give a crap whoís skin I see. Please donít imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasnít. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i donít like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didnít like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. Thatís my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just donít dismiss others because they didnít like it. Whatís the point in that?
I wouldn't say I liked every single second of it, but I do find a lot of comparisons to the past to be either redundant or nostalgic. At this point I'm sorta with Kylo where it's time to let go of the past.

Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2017, 04:02:34 PM »

Online eja117

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I'm definitely not saying that someone has to like a specific movie or character or development, but I think nit picking or saying something has to or should be a certain way is different.

I suppose nobody has to think it's a great idea for Luke to try to kill his nephew, but that's what happened.

I feel bad for the EU people and definitely like some of the EU, but ultimately the EU is anti-movie and the movies are sorta where Star Wars lives and what it's all about.

If Luke doesn't make some mistakes he can't really be redeemed or redirected by Yoda. 

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make a good TV show out of all this to address a lot of stuff.