Author Topic: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?  (Read 6532 times)

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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2017, 12:10:16 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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I like Simmons and Green but don't see them being moved.  would also mean the next guard off the bench is Nader/Larkin and that's a step in the wrong direction.
Simmons would provide cover for both the SG and the SF positions.
I see Simmons as more of a forward than a guard.
CBS is on the record as saying that he doesn't have the five positions anymore.

"I donít have the five positions anymore. It may be as simple as three positions now, where youíre either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.''

If Brown can play the 2, so does Simmons.


the rest are just the same issue -- no offense or no defense or no consistency.
What you are describing is an All-Star caliber player. If you are aware of a player who can do all 3 of those things and at the same time he is potentially available for a package centered around Rozier, please let me know. :P
not really.  Evan Turner was fairly solid all-around and not an all-star with us by any means. 

Amir Johnson too for that matter.  could provide some offense, some D and was fairly consistent.  the problem with Amir is we needed him to start but would have been a solid guy off the bench when we had him.

those are just a couple of examples.
Consistency on offense is a hard thing to find. No way was Amir a consistent contributor on offense. I would argue, he was barely a contributor. I see your point about Turner though.

Smart-Semi-Morris-Theis-Baynes are way above average on D (to say the least). We also have a go-to guy for the second unit in Morris. Next year Hayward comes back, so it's likely that at least one of Kyrie-Hayward-Horford-Tatum-Brown will always be on the floor to lead the offense (alongside Morris). If we were to trade Rozier, I don't necessarily see why we need to replace him with an all around player.

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2017, 12:23:52 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Two Magic players as reclamation projects ...

Hezonja is a good athlete with a scoring mentality. I'm not convinced he is good, but he wouldn't be the first Magic player that has not been developed until he got to another team.

Payton gets to his places on the court. I don't think he is going to make that much money next off-season. he is a good backup. Would you trade Smart for Payton straight up? Right now? Payton is a much better offensive player who can get into the paint -- something the second unit desperately needs. I like how crafty he is. The Magic were rumored to like Smart leading up the draft. They need a junkyard leader.

Just a thought. Both are highly unlikely. I do like Payton though.

If you thought people didn't like Smart's shot selection, just wait until you see Payton's...

Hezonja would be a perfect reclamation project here. He could certainly do some wonders in Steven's offense.
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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2017, 12:31:19 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I like Simmons and Green but don't see them being moved.  would also mean the next guard off the bench is Nader/Larkin and that's a step in the wrong direction.
Simmons would provide cover for both the SG and the SF positions.
I see Simmons as more of a forward than a guard.
CBS is on the record as saying that he doesn't have the five positions anymore.

"I donít have the five positions anymore. It may be as simple as three positions now, where youíre either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.''

If Brown can play the 2, so does Simmons.
I can understand your viewpoint.  I'd certainly love to have him on the roster.  when I've seen him play, he just seems to have more "forward" skills than "guard" skills if that makes sense.  for some reason I thought he was like 6'9" but having checked he's only 6'6" so your comparison to Brown as a guard makes some sense.

the rest are just the same issue -- no offense or no defense or no consistency.
What you are describing is an All-Star caliber player. If you are aware of a player who can do all 3 of those things and at the same time he is potentially available for a package centered around Rozier, please let me know. :P
not really.  Evan Turner was fairly solid all-around and not an all-star with us by any means. 

Amir Johnson too for that matter.  could provide some offense, some D and was fairly consistent.  the problem with Amir is we needed him to start but would have been a solid guy off the bench when we had him.

those are just a couple of examples.
Consistency on offense is a hard thing to find. No way was Amir a consistent contributor on offense. I would argue, he was barely a contributor. I see your point about Turner though.

Smart-Semi-Morris-Theis-Baynes are way above average on D (to say the least). We also have a go-to guy for the second unit in Morris. Next year Hayward comes back, so it's likely that at least one of Kyrie-Hayward-Horford-Tatum-Brown will always be on the floor to lead the offense (alongside Morris). If we were to trade Rozier, I don't necessarily see why we need to replace him with an all around player.
I'm approaching a Rozier trade from the standpoint of improving the guard rotation so basically getting someone to take Rozier's spot that's better than him.  that would likely require adding something to the deal from our side.  getting a better all-around player would make sense in that Rozier is too inconsistent on offense and defense.  the other option is if getting someone just as inconsistent, get someone whose peaks on offense and defense are better than Rozier's (and hopefully with less low spots in between the peaks).

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2017, 12:49:12 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Two Magic players as reclamation projects ...

Hezonja is a good athlete with a scoring mentality. I'm not convinced he is good, but he wouldn't be the first Magic player that has not been developed until he got to another team.

Payton gets to his places on the court. I don't think he is going to make that much money next off-season. he is a good backup. Would you trade Smart for Payton straight up? Right now? Payton is a much better offensive player who can get into the paint -- something the second unit desperately needs. I like how crafty he is. The Magic were rumored to like Smart leading up the draft. They need a junkyard leader.

Just a thought. Both are highly unlikely. I do like Payton though.

If you thought people didn't like Smart's shot selection, just wait until you see Payton's...

Hezonja would be a perfect reclamation project here. He could certainly do some wonders in Steven's offense.

Yeah but he is shooting like 47% from the field over the past two years. So he has to have a better shot selection, right?

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2017, 01:06:03 PM »

Offline LilRip

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The backups arenít too much of a problem. Itís when you have to play the backupsí backups that you see the real drop off. Guys like Nader and Yabusele (and to an extent, Semi) are pretty terrible. Nader, in particular, just rubs me the wrong way. Whenever heís on the floor, I feel like weíre going to lose the lead or dig a bigger hole. Dude just seems to always be out of place, defensively.
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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2017, 01:10:52 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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The backups arenít too much of a problem. Itís when you have to play the backupsí backups that you see the real drop off. Guys like Nader and Yabusele (and to an extent, Semi) are pretty terrible. Nader, in particular, just rubs me the wrong way. Whenever heís on the floor, I feel like weíre going to lose the lead or dig a bigger hole. Dude just seems to always be out of place, defensively.

He was out of place a lot last night. Because the crowd was so quiet, you could hear both CBS and his teammates consistently directing him to the correct location on the court, both on offense and defense.

I hadn't noticed it before last night, but it was obvious his didn't know what was going, which further makes me wonder why CBS seems to like him. I trust CBS. He has his reasons, but based on the information I know, it doesn't make sense.

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2017, 01:12:02 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I like Simmons and Green but don't see them being moved.  would also mean the next guard off the bench is Nader/Larkin and that's a step in the wrong direction.
Simmons would provide cover for both the SG and the SF positions.
I see Simmons as more of a forward than a guard.
CBS is on the record as saying that he doesn't have the five positions anymore.

"I donít have the five positions anymore. It may be as simple as three positions now, where youíre either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.''

If Brown can play the 2, so does Simmons.
I can understand your viewpoint.  I'd certainly love to have him on the roster.  when I've seen him play, he just seems to have more "forward" skills than "guard" skills if that makes sense.  for some reason I thought he was like 6'9" but having checked he's only 6'6" so your comparison to Brown as a guard makes some sense.

the rest are just the same issue -- no offense or no defense or no consistency.
What you are describing is an All-Star caliber player. If you are aware of a player who can do all 3 of those things and at the same time he is potentially available for a package centered around Rozier, please let me know. :P
not really.  Evan Turner was fairly solid all-around and not an all-star with us by any means. 

Amir Johnson too for that matter.  could provide some offense, some D and was fairly consistent.  the problem with Amir is we needed him to start but would have been a solid guy off the bench when we had him.

those are just a couple of examples.
Consistency on offense is a hard thing to find. No way was Amir a consistent contributor on offense. I would argue, he was barely a contributor. I see your point about Turner though.

Smart-Semi-Morris-Theis-Baynes are way above average on D (to say the least). We also have a go-to guy for the second unit in Morris. Next year Hayward comes back, so it's likely that at least one of Kyrie-Hayward-Horford-Tatum-Brown will always be on the floor to lead the offense (alongside Morris). If we were to trade Rozier, I don't necessarily see why we need to replace him with an all around player.
I'm approaching a Rozier trade from the standpoint of improving the guard rotation so basically getting someone to take Rozier's spot that's better than him.  that would likely require adding something to the deal from our side.  getting a better all-around player would make sense in that Rozier is too inconsistent on offense and defense.  the other option is if getting someone just as inconsistent, get someone whose peaks on offense and defense are better than Rozier's (and hopefully with less low spots in between the peaks).

Jonathan Simmons is literally LAST (86th out of 86) in defensive RPM this year for SF's!!

No thanks.

Smitty77

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2017, 01:13:21 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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Two Magic players as reclamation projects ...

Hezonja is a good athlete with a scoring mentality. I'm not convinced he is good, but he wouldn't be the first Magic player that has not been developed until he got to another team.

Payton gets to his places on the court. I don't think he is going to make that much money next off-season. he is a good backup. Would you trade Smart for Payton straight up? Right now? Payton is a much better offensive player who can get into the paint -- something the second unit desperately needs. I like how crafty he is. The Magic were rumored to like Smart leading up the draft. They need a junkyard leader.

Just a thought. Both are highly unlikely. I do like Payton though.

If you thought people didn't like Smart's shot selection, just wait until you see Payton's...

Hezonja would be a perfect reclamation project here. He could certainly do some wonders in Steven's offense.

I totally agree in taking a flyer on Hezonja!!!  You cannot teach length for SG's and he is 6' 8"!!!  And he is only 22.

Smitty77

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2017, 01:19:50 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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rushing to improve the bench this season is only a necessity if we have a legit shot at the title.  Without a  healthy Hayward, I don't see it.  ECF and possibly the finals but beating GSW without Hayward in a 7-game series is just improbable.

Solution: wait til next year for natural improvements
- starters are Kyrie, Hayward, Horford and probably Brown.  5th starter is likely to be Tatum.
- Barring trades, bench becomes Smart (likely resigned to reasonable deal since his offense is still hit or miss), Rozier, Morris (hopefully finally healthy), Theis, Semi.   That's not too bad provided there's a mix of 2 starters out there at a time. 
Deep bench: C's 1st rounder, Yabu, maybe Lakers' first rounder.

Baynes has likely played himself into a deal larger than the MLE which would be all we could offer. 
Bird and Allen may have the 2-way deals again.
Larkin and Nader are very likely gone.
C's have the MLE (if not Baynes) to pick up a decent bench guy or 2.

I'm more than ready to move on from Rozier because he's way too inconsistent and he doesn't have that knack to make big plays in close games that Smart does.  The question becomes, who could we trade him for that would consistently contribute?

I agree with your assessment that no drastic moves should be made till next season.

Next season the Cs will likely start a lineup that mimics the Warriors "death" lineup. In its shooting and spacing prowess. With an eye towards next year assuming Smart can be retained and Baynes can not then the Cs may need to look into moving Morris and Rozier to restructure the bench in preparation for a legit title push.

I agree that as much as I like Rozier he is somewhat redundant to Smart and a more pure shooter is a better fit off the bench. Not that either are likely options but I would rather see a Seth Curry or Tyler Johnson type shooter in this role. For that reason a small part of me would be interested to see a vet min Jimmer Fredette get a shot on the Cs. This also makes a case for Bellineli with the DPE.

If Baynes is lost to a higher bidder the Cs absolutely must bring in another true big man. Starting Al at C is fine as long as his back up can provide the minutes and skill set that Baynes currently is. Theis is a nice option at the 5/4 but against the larger centers he is to over matched.

Filling this shooter and big man role may ultimately mean having to move Morris and Rozier. 

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 01:42:53 PM by CFAN38 »

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2017, 04:40:03 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Here's a list. There are a number of players on there I would rather have than some of our guys:

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/current_free_agents

That's an ugly list but I think Diaw would be a good 2nd unit veteran big.
Yeah, there's not a lot there.

I see Terrence Jones is still out there, though. I always thought he was interesting. Not sure why he never reached his potential. Old friend Brandon Bass is out there, too. As is Ben Bentil. That guy was kind of a monster in college, why couldn't he figure it out in the NBA? He wasn't even good in the D-League. Ty Lawson had some nice years in the NBA.

But those are all long shots to even be contributors.
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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 05:04:47 PM »

Offline mctyson

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LOL @ "cut Nader" being the bench solution.  He never plays.

That's shortsighted, though. Cutting Nader has it's advantages, in that it creates another roster spot. This would then give us 2 available roster spots and the use of the DPE. Nader is simply unplayable and having him on the roster does nothing for our team.

I am not here to defend Nader, but he is a rookie.  Cutting a rookie who never plays to "revamp the bench" like the title of this thread desires does nothing besides open a seat at the end of the bench.

Cutting Nader does not address the fact that Rozier and Ojeleye have played 280 minutes together and are almost a -10pt net rating, the only negative number in the top 20 2-man groups on basketball-reference.

Cutting Nader does not address the fact that the offense is mediocre, largely because of the bench players who are playing 15min+ per game.

And most importantly never-playing-Nader has nothing to do with the team shooting 10 for 40 (!!!!!) from 3.






Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 10:15:46 PM »

Offline __ramonezy__

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NBA Metrics have us as having the 6th best bench in the league... guess we can stop knee-jerking to a single loss

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2748208-nba-metrics-101-ranking-top-10-benches-in-the-nba

Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 03:51:32 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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NBA Metrics have us as having the 6th best bench in the league... guess we can stop knee-jerking to a single loss

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2748208-nba-metrics-101-ranking-top-10-benches-in-the-nba

As a function of defensive prowess. A little coherence attacking would be great also.
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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 04:11:30 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Two Magic players as reclamation projects ...

Hezonja is a good athlete with a scoring mentality. I'm not convinced he is good, but he wouldn't be the first Magic player that has not been developed until he got to another team.

Payton gets to his places on the court. I don't think he is going to make that much money next off-season. he is a good backup. Would you trade Smart for Payton straight up? Right now? Payton is a much better offensive player who can get into the paint -- something the second unit desperately needs. I like how crafty he is. The Magic were rumored to like Smart leading up the draft. They need a junkyard leader.

Just a thought. Both are highly unlikely. I do like Payton though.
Smart for Payton makes this team a lot worse today.

Hurts the bench and defense and takes away the heart and soul of the team. Probably has a negligible effect on the offense.
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Re: The bench needs to be revamped. Suggestions?
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 06:27:12 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
NBA Metrics have us as having the 6th best bench in the league... guess we can stop knee-jerking to a single loss

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2748208-nba-metrics-101-ranking-top-10-benches-in-the-nba

This article is based only on defense and is clearly just an opinion.   Our offense is not so hot off the bench.

Our bench is ranked 17th overall. 

We are much lower in a lot of the offensive areas with our bench stats.

3oth in FG percentage
29th in 3P percentage
23rd in points

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/18/7/fga/1-1

You can also see opponents stats vs. our bench

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/opponentstats/18/7/diffeff/1-1

Pretty clear we have some offensive woes that your little article neglects.   The great thing about the internet is you can look up a stat to defend an argument but somewhere out there is some more information that someone can look up and present against.   I recommend your home work a little more.

Quote
I am not here to defend Nader, but he is a rookie.

Wasn't he a rookie last year.     

Quote
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Round: 2 / Pick: 58

 The guy is dead weight and can't defend at all.   I think he has guts and can make a shot here and there.   But he has a roster slot that would be better served with a veteran presence.   NBA defense is not a skillset he possesses.   That being said, he is not the main reason our bench struggles.  It is we lack skilled offensive bench players but we are full of hustler types that are scrappy and good on defense.