Poll

Is Stevens playing Baynes enough?

Yes
19 (54.3%)
No
16 (45.7%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Stevens' usage of Baynes  (Read 2357 times)

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Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2017, 10:05:19 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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"I blame a large part of yesterdays loss on Stevens and his misuse of Baynes"-i think that says it all and you said it
 but the celts record says different
How did he misuse Baynes yesterday-
The offense rolls through Horford and he spreads the floor opening up for Kyrie and Tatum.

The GAME that I am talking about Rollie IS last night's game and we are 0-1 in that game DUE to Brad.

You seriously did not have a problem with HOW we were guarding Aldridge and who we were putting on him??

You didn't mind playing an AWFUL Marcus Morris 25 utterly WORTHLESS minutes last night?

You did not have a problem with Morris and Brown not getting MORE shots?

I have immense respect for your b-ball knowledge Rollie, but I simply don't see HOW you can defend the rotations and minutes LAST night!!!

Smitty77

If you sat down with Brad, and asked him why he did the things you think he did wrong, do you think you would have better reasoning than he does?

He would have some explaining to do regarding last night's game!!  I think I would have a GREAT chance with my reasoning regarding last night's game.  Brad is a genius in MOST aspects of the game!!  Playing the hot hand and rotations are NOT his two strongest points however.  Maybe they will be in time, but they are NOT yet!!

Smitty77

While I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. Brad has darn good reasons for the decisions he makes, and there is a reason he is regarded by all as a top 5 coach already, and certainly is younger than his peers in that upper echelon.

This is not a very useful response, though.  It just reads as an appeal to authority.

This is a fan discussion forum.  Brad Stevens isn't here.  Some fans disagree with the strategy that Brad used and they have explained why.   Simply asserting that Brad is a genius isn't a very meaningful response.  Instead, try coming up with the "darn good reasons" that might have lead Brad to make those decisions and see if they stand up to scrutiny.

Personally, I'm going to come down on the side of agreeing with Eddie20 and Smitty77 here.  I know for a fact that this team has measurably and significantly played better all season with Baynes or Theis on the floor (playing the 5) in large part because it allows Horford to play the 4 (where he has been dominant).

I have as much right to my opinion as anyone else does, so my response is just as useful as anyone else's. I am not going to try and read Brads mind. I just continue to recognize that it is foolish to think I have even close to the level of insight Brad has regarding this team, considering he is one of the best coaches in the league, and sees this team nearly every day.

Again, I just disagree. I think you guys are wrong for thinking you would be able to make better adjustments than Brad, and that he doesn't have far better reasons for doing what he does, than you guys do for your suggestions.

Brad is a top 3 coach, and seeing fans regularly call him out for stuff, when it is 100% certain Brad had a far better grip on the players and this team, just baffles me.

And again, please don't refer to my posts as useless, just because I am taking the viewpoint that Brad is better than any of us in the choices he makes out there.

I feel incredibly strongly that if you had a meeting with Brad, and you addressed the concerns you had, Brad would explain to you exactly why he has done what he has done, and you would then understand and realize why you are the incorrect one, not Brad.

I, for one, have NOT called your posts useless!!  That being said, you are talking in generalities, while others are talking in specifics.  That is a HUGE difference.  And I would totally concur that Brad is CERTAINLY a top 3 coach (not just in the NBA, but likely in ALL of basketball!!!)!!!!  I can think that and STILL CRITICIZE his areas of weakness.  So could you!!!

Take care,

Smitty77

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2017, 10:07:03 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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I hope that Brad took notes on Pops early timeout and technical -this put pressure on refs-.
Morris had a bad game but has had his share of good ones and has been fighting off that knee injury
I assume Brad would not embarrass Morris by not letting him get minutes or benching him in a payback game.
As to miss management of Baynes minutes in this game its a moot point.He wasn't available.
It came down to loss of Marcus by Ginobili driving him into screen that could have been an offensive but Pops took care of that -after all it was home court

Aldridge is in running for MVP and was going to get his points vs others hitting threes.
That back rim long offensive rebound  was instrumental-a bit of luck there
And if, Marcus was guarding Ginobili would a switch have occurred on his three or would have Ginobili even got that offensive rebound previously.
.That early timeout and early technical was pure "Red"in influencing refs that had forgot home court advantage
The Celts had a 4 game streak,Baynes went down-Rudy Gay hit some tough angle shots ,Ginobili was clutch at 40 and the Celts had led most of way.
It was a lottery said Pops and Ginobili said his shot lucky as he changed arc to get it over Horfords defense.


Aldridge would have just bullied Theis drawing and ones
Benching Morris in a revenge game may have been counter productive ,he is a proud man and it might not sit well.Player management is one skill Brads has and that means not embarrassing his players.
You want a spaced floor and rested Irving for a 4th quarter push-that was a bad bounce win with Pops manipulating the refs .
Kryrie owns the 4th his shot didn't fall Ginobili's did.

Regarding Aldridge bullying Theis, I SURE would have liked for him to have AT LEAST been given the freaking CHANCE to guard him!!!  BUT, he was NOT given such a chance, was he Rollie??

Smitty77

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2017, 10:07:49 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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I assume Brad would not embarrass Morris by not letting him get minutes or benching him in a payback game.

As to miss management of Baynes minutes in this game its a moot point.He wasn't available.

Benching Morris in a revenge game may have been counter productive ,he is a proud man and it might not sit well.

These comments lead me to believe that you're just typing away without reading other members comments on Baynes and also have no clue on the teams Morris has played for.

First on Morris, since it's shorter...he never played for the Spurs or Pop, so why the two mentions of a revenge narrative?

As for Baynes, AGAIN, no one is mentioning the 4Q, I and others are referring to the game in general, particularly the first 3 quarters where Stevens didn't use him appropriately. Please try to follow along.

1Q
6:47 Celtics are up 14-4. Aldridge has missed his only 2 FG attempts and has only 2 points, both coming from the FT line. Morris enters the game for Baynes.

2:13 Celtics are up 27-18. During the 4 minutes and change that the Baynes substitution was made Aldridge makes 5 out of his 6 FG attempts and was the only reason the deficit for the Spurs wasn't greater. Gasol enters for Aldridge.

2Q
8:01 Celtics are still up 9 (41-32). Aldridge is back in the game. Baynes is still on the bench. During the stretch Aldridge nearly gets a double/double in the next 8 minutes with 7 pts and 7 boards.

0.05 Celtics down 55-56. The above stretch proved critical. Baynes enters the game for Brown. No impact on the game.

3Q
5:25 Celtics down 67-71. Smart enters the game for Baynes. During the early part of this stretch Aldridge only scores 4 pts (2 for 4 shooting), picks up 2 fouls, and collects 0 rebounds.

2:02 Celtics up 76-73. This 3 minute stretch doesn't have much of an impact. Aldridge misses his only attempt, but does manage to grab 2 rebounds. Gasol enters for Aldridge.



In the 4Q, Aldridge did not go back into the game until the 6:30 mark. Baynes is out out of the game with an injury, but that's a moot point because he rarely ever plays the end of the game, as Stevens prefers to go small regardless of opposition.

So based on the above data it's pretty clear that there is a direct correlation with Aldridge having success with Baynes not on the floor. The two stretches that he was virtually unstoppable had Baynes firmly planted on the bench.

Baynes only played 14 minutes, only had 2 fouls, and was a +4.

I could do the same thing for the Pistons game a game which saw Drummond virtually unstoppable. In that game Drummond played 40 minutes, Baynes played 12 minutes, had 0 fouls, and did NOT leave the game due to injury. Oh, and Baynes was a +5 in a 10 point loss.

Remarkably well done Eddie!!!!

Smitty77

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2017, 10:08:54 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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I assume Brad would not embarrass Morris by not letting him get minutes or benching him

As to miss management of Baynes minutes in this game its a moot point.He wasn't available.

Benching Morris  may have been counter productive ,he is a proud man and it might not sit well.

These comments lead me to believe that you're just typing away without reading other members comments on Baynes and also have no clue on the teams Morris has played for.

First on Morris, since it's shorter...he never played for the Spurs or Pop, so why the two mentions of a revenge narrative?

As for Baynes, AGAIN, no one is mentioning the 4Q, I and others are referring to the game in general, particularly the first 3 quarters where Stevens didn't use him appropriately. Please try to follow along.

1Q
6:47 Celtics are up 14-4. Aldridge has missed his only 2 FG attempts and has only 2 points, both coming from the FT line. Morris enters the game for Baynes.

2:13 Celtics are up 27-18. During the 4 minutes and change that the Baynes substitution was made Aldridge makes 5 out of his 6 FG attempts and was the only reason the deficit for the Spurs wasn't greater. Gasol enters for Aldridge.

2Q
8:01 Celtics are still up 9 (41-32). Aldridge is back in the game. Baynes is still on the bench. During the stretch Aldridge nearly gets a double/double in the next 8 minutes with 7 pts and 7 boards.

0.05 Celtics down 55-56. The above stretch proved critical. Baynes enters the game for Brown. No impact on the game.

3Q
5:25 Celtics down 67-71. Smart enters the game for Baynes. During the early part of this stretch Aldridge only scores 4 pts (2 for 4 shooting), picks up 2 fouls, and collects 0 rebounds.

2:02 Celtics up 76-73. This 3 minute stretch doesn't have much of an impact. Aldridge misses his only attempt, but does manage to grab 2 rebounds. Gasol enters for Aldridge.



In the 4Q, Aldridge did not go back into the game until the 6:30 mark. Baynes is out out of the game with an injury, but that's a moot point because he rarely ever plays the end of the game, as Stevens prefers to go small regardless of opposition.

So based on the above data it's pretty clear that there is a direct correlation with Aldridge having success with Baynes not on the floor. The two stretches that he was virtually unstoppable had Baynes firmly planted on the bench.

Baynes only played 14 minutes, only had 2 fouls, and was a +4.

I could do the same thing for the Pistons game a game which saw Drummond virtually unstoppable. In that game Drummond played 40 minutes, Baynes played 12 minutes, had 0 fouls, and did NOT leave the game due to injury. Oh, and Baynes was a +5 in a 10 point loss.

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2017, 10:28:46 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Holy over reaction, Batman. The Celtics lost to a top 5 NBA team, on that team's home court, lost by a last second three pointer made by a future Hall of Famer, and actually had a shot to tie the game and send it into overtime with almost no time left but missed the shot!

It was a regular season road game against one of the NBA's best. It's gonna happen.

I am sure this is how the game will be remembered, but it really shouldn't have ever been that close. We started the game by dominating the Spurs, held them off for most of the first half, and then completely fell apart at the end of the 2nd quarter. In the 4th quarter, despite Aldridge's dominance of Horford and Irving/Tatum being the only Cs players able to do anything offensively, it still seemed like we had the game in hand before, once again, losing focus and letting this one slip away.

I think Smitty and mmmmm laid it out pretty well (TPs). This is a game we probably should have won [handily], but something always felt wrong - it just didn't seem like the team was always playing 'Celtics basketball' and they carelessly and deservedly lost at the end.
You hit the nail on the head. This game had little to do with Baynes'minutes and more to do with how the team closed quarters. By ny account the Celtics were outscored during the last minutes of each quater by an aggregate score of 17-8. That's where this game was won and lost.

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2017, 05:07:30 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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What a difference a Baynes on a big makes!

At the half...

         Baynes   -     Drummond

PTS       2                    0
REB       8                    5
FGM       1                    0
FGA       2                    2
BLK       0                     0
MIN       15                  15


Now I may not know as much as Stevens, but I think it's safe to say his usage of Baynes was reexamined after the last game vs Drummond.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 05:20:45 PM by Eddie20 »

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2017, 05:18:14 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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TP for the stats. It seems that the blog sometimes does know better than the coaches.

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2017, 06:24:12 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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What a difference a Baynes on a big makes!

vs Detroit...

         Baynes   -     Drummond

PTS       6                    6
REB       13                   15
FGM       3                    1
FGA       6                    5
BLK       0                     0
MIN       27                  30

We're now 11-0 when Baynes plays 20 or more minutes.


Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2017, 06:56:04 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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What a difference a Baynes on a big makes!

vs Detroit...

         Baynes   -     Drummond

PTS       6                    6
REB       13                   15
FGM       3                    1
FGA       6                    5
BLK       0                     0
MIN       27                  30

We're now 11-0 when Baynes plays 20 or more minutes.
Put him on the floor with the winning record yabusele brings and we have ourselves a championship! ;D
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Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 06:56:46 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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TP for the stats. It seems that the blog sometimes does know better than the coaches.
Or maybe CBS is taking notes from here.  ;D
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 07:42:30 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Baynes on Drummond makes Horford better as well.

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 11:39:05 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Baynes played 26m and celts allow a season low 81 points.  Of course 91 points offense is not great but if the opponents cant score it makes it easier to win.  Just gotta pick baynes matchups and minutes well because he makes us better!

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2017, 10:07:03 AM »

Offline Chris22

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By playing Baynes in the fourth quarter last night, Brad showed that he has learned that going small is not always the best option.

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2017, 12:28:32 PM »

Offline ForexPirate

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I think that eventually Brad will figure out that Baynes is a better choice than Smart to close the fourth quarter. 

The Smart that takes all those ill advised three point shots is not welcome in the fourth quarter.  The Smart that drives to the bucket is.  I think he is a great passer as well.  But he needs to play to his strengths.  Until he does, I think Baynes is a better choice defensively in the fourth quarter.  He can get those big boards that Marcus often gets while defending the pick and roll. 

Re: Stevens' usage of Baynes
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2017, 02:24:09 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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I think from game 1 this season, the Celtics have been "better with Baynes."

Stevens plays him when he plays him for his reasons. It was already posted that some stats indicate lower offensive output with Baynes on the floor which I don't know what that means because the Celtics have basically "won" all of their games and in 5 losses, have not been blown out...ever.

Drummond never got it going last night and his team mates never did either. Pistons looked spent last night which is why it helps to assess player performance by watching the game not the stat line.

Has it already been posted that Bayne's minute stats relate to injury? Hell, Amir Johnson's entire career in Boston featured "managed minutes"...you  could hear his knees creaking from Causeway street.

Has Baynes ever been on the court for the last five minutes of a Celtic's game?

Fantastic addition to the team...the guy plays way bigger than he is and here's to Stevens figuring out how to best use him to help beat the Cavs.