Author Topic: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs  (Read 2933 times)

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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 08:47:45 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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If IT actually is 95% healthy when the playoffs roll around, and we face the Cavs in what will likely be the ECF, it's certainly possible he scores a lot of points.

But he'll give up more than he scores, which is all that matters.  He has no chance of guarding anyone in the Celtics starting lineup.  Kyrie-Jaylen-Jayson -- ask yourself who does he guard?
Who is going to guard IT though?  It works both ways.

Yeah, you always say that, but that's not what people are talking about. We're not talking about defensive ability alone here; we're talking about general size. IT will give up at least 6 inches guarding Kyrie, and he'll give up 10 inches to a foot on Brown and Tatum. That's not the same thing as saying, "Kyrie is an average individual defender going up against a good offensive player in IT." It's much more of a disadvantage.

Besides, it'll probably be Brown on him anyways. IT has always struggled against bigger, lankier defenders, and Stevens knows this. And Brown will be the biggest, lankiest, and most athletic defender to have ever guarded IT full time.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 09:35:31 AM by jpotter33 »
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2017, 09:56:28 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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If IT actually is 95% healthy when the playoffs roll around, and we face the Cavs in what will likely be the ECF, it's certainly possible he scores a lot of points.

But he'll give up more than he scores, which is all that matters.  He has no chance of guarding anyone in the Celtics starting lineup.  Kyrie-Jaylen-Jayson -- ask yourself who does he guard?

I feel fairly confident that he’ll outscore Brown and Tatum.

I don't know why people feel like he'll give up more than he scores. There's a reason we were so much better with him on the floor than off last year, and it's because he was absolutely elite offensively.  Unless his hip is still really dogging him, he'll be a net positive out there.  His elite offensive ability will outweigh his defensive impact, just like it did for us.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2017, 10:19:39 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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If IT actually is 95% healthy when the playoffs roll around, and we face the Cavs in what will likely be the ECF, it's certainly possible he scores a lot of points.

But he'll give up more than he scores, which is all that matters.  He has no chance of guarding anyone in the Celtics starting lineup.  Kyrie-Jaylen-Jayson -- ask yourself who does he guard?

I feel fairly confident that he’ll outscore Brown and Tatum.

I don't know why people feel like he'll give up more than he scores. There's a reason we were so much better with him on the floor than off last year, and it's because he was absolutely elite offensively.  Unless his hip is still really dogging him, he'll be a net positive out there.  His elite offensive ability will outweigh his defensive impact, just like it did for us.
part of it was the role he was able to have in our offense.

His shot creation was so crucial to our offense that his offensive impact was immense. He was asked to create [dang] near everything for us and he was unbelievably successful in doing so, but theres a few things.

1. Last seasons production was unsustainable. He was due for some level of regression no matter what.

2. Hip injury is unlikely to go away. That injury doesnt heal on its own and he didnt get surgery. He can manage the pain (like he did for a lot of last year) but he wont ever be 100%.

3. Lebron James is there and will create most of the offense. When IT was on the floor with us last year he was able to give us A+ offense because it all revolved around him. His gravity, his shot creation, his playmaking, the whole thing. In Cleveland, Lebron monopolizes a lot of this stuff and although he will not hesitate to allow IT to handle the ball, the system simply isnt built to maximize ITs skills like it was in Boston(this is speculation on my part). Because of this, Thomas wont be able to give the same level of positive impact on offense, while having almost exactly the same level of negative impact on D.

4. He is no longer on the Celtics and I now want to beat the team that he is on.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2017, 11:11:44 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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I'm sure he'll get his...just as I'm sure he'll force his teammates to carry his defensive load in each game. His lack of defensive value is an energy draw on the entire team. His teammates get fatigued as he tries to score on the other end.   

It's only a matter of time when he goes to the rim and gets knocked down that he'll come up limping and go to the bench.

As we're now seeing...team defense matters.

Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2017, 11:59:55 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA. 

Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2017, 12:31:56 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA.

Probably one of the worst, but there are some horrific defenders.  That includes several 'stars'.

CLE has an elite defense that will prob be able to hide him effectively though, and with LBJ, they have everything it takes to become uber elite in the playoffs.  With experience to boot.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2017, 12:33:27 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA.

Probably one of the worst, but there are some horrific defenders.  That includes several 'stars'.

CLE has an elite defense that will prob be able to hide him effectively though, and with LBJ, they have everything it takes to become uber elite in the playoffs.  With experience to boot.

Outside of LBJ, maybe Crowder, what do you think they have that gives them "uber-elite" defensive potential?

Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2017, 12:41:49 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA.

Probably one of the worst, but there are some horrific defenders.  That includes several 'stars'.

CLE has an elite defense that will prob be able to hide him effectively though, and with LBJ, they have everything it takes to become uber elite in the playoffs.  With experience to boot.

Outside of LBJ, maybe Crowder, what do you think they have that gives them "uber-elite" defensive potential?

No one really, and they're mediocre right now -- i should've said potential. So you're right there - I was wrong - statistically, they're mediocre at best right now in terms of efficiency. But with LBJ, they can clamp down when needed in the playoffs.  I think that won them their chip over GS as much as Kyrie's hail mary 3.

They're coasting right now.  I argued that they'd coast thru reg season well before their current win streak.  A'nd when u coast, youre more likely to dog it on D than O.  Don't u think?

Edit: 2nd best defensive efficiency in the playoffs last year,but pretty bad in reg season:

https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/?sort=W&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:53:18 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2017, 01:04:07 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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If IT actually is 95% healthy when the playoffs roll around, and we face the Cavs in what will likely be the ECF, it's certainly possible he scores a lot of points.

But he'll give up more than he scores, which is all that matters.  He has no chance of guarding anyone in the Celtics starting lineup.  Kyrie-Jaylen-Jayson -- ask yourself who does he guard?
Who is going to guard IT though?  It works both ways.

My guess would be Jaylen, but it could be Kyrie, at least when the starters are in.  And if it is Kyrie, well, I trust him to be able to limit IT much more than IT being able to limit Kyrie.

And if for some reason the Cavs think they can hide IT on Jaylen, I feel confident Jaylen will be able to score with ease.

There just is no where for the Cavs to hide IT against the C's.  It will be a big problem for them.

Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2017, 06:11:32 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think we will be fine.   I don't think we are favorites but when you play the Cavs I worry more about LeBron than what IT will do to us.   Maybe he will be like Crowder and revert to his old self once outside of CBS system.   It happened to Turner, too.

Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2017, 08:43:24 AM »

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If IT actually is 95% healthy when the playoffs roll around, and we face the Cavs in what will likely be the ECF, it's certainly possible he scores a lot of points.

But he'll give up more than he scores, which is all that matters.  He has no chance of guarding anyone in the Celtics starting lineup.  Kyrie-Jaylen-Jayson -- ask yourself who does he guard?
Who is going to guard IT though?  It works both ways.

Yeah, you always say that, but that's not what people are talking about. We're not talking about defensive ability alone here; we're talking about general size. IT will give up at least 6 inches guarding Kyrie, and he'll give up 10 inches to a foot on Brown and Tatum. That's not the same thing as saying, "Kyrie is an average individual defender going up against a good offensive player in IT." It's much more of a disadvantage.

Besides, it'll probably be Brown on him anyways. IT has always struggled against bigger, lankier defenders, and Stevens knows this. And Brown will be the biggest, lankiest, and most athletic defender to have ever guarded IT full time.
Sure IT is smaller, but he is also a lot faster than any Celtic defender (even Irving).  IT's speed is a real problem for Boston.  Brown and Smart aren't fast enough and Irving just isn't good enough to defend IT.  Teams could double him up last year and slow him down, but you can't double IT on the Cavs because they are just too good offensively as a whole. 
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2017, 11:01:32 AM »

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2. Hip injury is unlikely to go away. That injury doesnt heal on its own and he didnt get surgery. He can manage the pain (like he did for a lot of last year) but he wont ever be 100%.


So ... you've seen Thomas' MRI scans and x-rays?  And you've spoken to his doctors?   Or are you just making stuff up because it makes for a story you like?

As someone who had to learn an awful lot about hips in recent years, I can tell you that the fact that he didn't need surgery doesn't mean he's more likely to have trouble with it.   It can very much mean he won't have any trouble with it.   It's impossible for you or I to say.   It all depends on the exact nature of HIS hips.  And as far as I can tell, no one has violated HEPA laws yet by releasing Thomas' scans.   So we just don't know.

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3. Lebron James is there and will create most of the offense. When IT was on the floor with us last year he was able to give us A+ offense because it all revolved around him. His gravity, his shot creation, his playmaking, the whole thing. In Cleveland, Lebron monopolizes a lot of this stuff and although he will not hesitate to allow IT to handle the ball, the system simply isnt built to maximize ITs skills like it was in Boston(this is speculation on my part). Because of this, Thomas wont be able to give the same level of positive impact on offense, while having almost exactly the same level of negative impact on D.

I think this is extremely off-base.  Thomas worked a ton 'off the ball' last year due to  Smart's ineffectiveness away from the ball and because we ran the offense through Al Horford so much and should have no problem doing so with James.  Thomas is also a far more credible outside threat than Rose, Barea or Wade and will greatly improve the spacing for James to attack with.

Also - and this is perhaps the most critical, is that when Lebron sits, Thomas and Kevin Love will be able run an elite pick & roll attack.   The two have extremely complementary skills, similar to the way Thomas and Horford matched up last year.    Thomas and Love have history, being very close friends way back in their AAU days - even sleeping over at each other's houses.   I expect them to have very good chemistry -- something Love and Kyrie never seemed to have.

Quote
4. He is no longer on the Celtics and I now want to beat the team that he is on.

I concur with that.  But it would be a mistake to underestimate that team.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2017, 11:16:41 AM »

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2. Hip injury is unlikely to go away. That injury doesnt heal on its own and he didnt get surgery. He can manage the pain (like he did for a lot of last year) but he wont ever be 100%.


So ... you've seen Thomas' MRI scans and x-rays?  And you've spoken to his doctors?   Or are you just making stuff up because it makes for a story you like?

As someone who had to learn an awful lot about hips in recent years, I can tell you that the fact that he didn't need surgery doesn't mean he's more likely to have trouble with it.   It can very much mean he won't have any trouble with it.   It's impossible for you or I to say.   It all depends on the exact nature of HIS hips.  And as far as I can tell, no one has violated HEPA laws yet by releasing Thomas' scans.   So we just don't know.

Quote

3. Lebron James is there and will create most of the offense. When IT was on the floor with us last year he was able to give us A+ offense because it all revolved around him. His gravity, his shot creation, his playmaking, the whole thing. In Cleveland, Lebron monopolizes a lot of this stuff and although he will not hesitate to allow IT to handle the ball, the system simply isnt built to maximize ITs skills like it was in Boston(this is speculation on my part). Because of this, Thomas wont be able to give the same level of positive impact on offense, while having almost exactly the same level of negative impact on D.

I think this is extremely off-base.  Thomas worked a ton 'off the ball' last year due to  Smart's ineffectiveness away from the ball and because we ran the offense through Al Horford so much and should have no problem doing so with James.  Thomas is also a far more credible outside threat than Rose, Barea or Wade and will greatly improve the spacing for James to attack with.

Also - and this is perhaps the most critical, is that when Lebron sits, Thomas and Kevin Love will be able run an elite pick & roll attack.   The two have extremely complementary skills, similar to the way Thomas and Horford matched up last year.    Thomas and Love have history, being very close friends way back in their AAU days - even sleeping over at each other's houses.   I expect them to have very good chemistry -- something Love and Kyrie never seemed to have.

Quote
4. He is no longer on the Celtics and I now want to beat the team that he is on.

I concur with that.  But it would be a mistake to underestimate that team.

TP. I agree with literally everything you say...

I actually think even though Isaiah Thomas isn't a better defender than Kyrie, the chemistry that Love and IT will have on the pick and roll will actually allow them both to have complimentary scoring options and will allow LBJ to sit for extended minutes.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2017, 11:21:04 AM »

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA.

I'm betting you have never seen Devin Booker play defense.

(Hint:  Because he doesn't.)

Ultimately, though, guard defense is such an overrated thing.    Especially for elite scoring guards.    I don't put much weight on their defense at all because it's not nearly as important as the defense you get from your bigs & wings.    And the last thing I want is for my elite scoring guard to get tagged with a couple of early fouls because he was trying to take charges or getting too aggressive reaching in on defense.
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Re: This guy is going to torch us in the ECFs
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2017, 12:17:26 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The more correct statement would be that IT's defense is going to torch the Cavs. 

Love the guy, but he probably is the worst defensive player in the entire NBA.

I'm betting you have never seen Devin Booker play defense.

(Hint:  Because he doesn't.)

Ultimately, though, guard defense is such an overrated thing.    Especially for elite scoring guards.    I don't put much weight on their defense at all because it's not nearly as important as the defense you get from your bigs & wings.    And the last thing I want is for my elite scoring guard to get tagged with a couple of early fouls because he was trying to take charges or getting too aggressive reaching in on defense.

I think bad guard defense can be overcome to a degree by having a great interior defender that can deter some drives and/or great team defensive schemes. The Cavs rim protector is currently Kevin Love or Tristan Thompson who probably couldn't even stop his girlfriend from dunking on him earlier in the season. Their team defense is also very mediocre and Lue is hardly known as an innovative coach that can come up with elaborate schemes to hide IT.