Author Topic: Stop starting Morris!!!  (Read 4719 times)

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Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2017, 11:50:58 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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While watching games, I have started to refer to Morris as the black hole offensively. The ball seems to stick and more times than not he takes a contested jumper.

I think his offense could be huge for our second unit, and hopefully that happens sooner rather than later.
Morris has always been a bit of a ball stopper who will take bad shots as well.

His offensive impact has always been meh because of this, putting him as the starting PF so much really doesn't utilize him the best against most teams.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2017, 12:04:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Using 82games 5 man unit data (which doesn't seem to fully add up), they have Baynes at a total of 214 minutes with 157 of those with Horford on the court also (about 73%).  I think this is based on top 5 man units not all 5 man units so it may not be 100% accurate but the point is that it doesn't matter if Baynes starts or not, he is getting minutes with Horford on the court.  Horford-Baynes is the top front court pairing with Morris-Horford and Tatum-Horford also up there.
Sure, but the problem is when he plays 10 minutes a game and we're getting killed on the boards by Andre Drummond.
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Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2017, 12:09:05 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/934721663022915584

The above tweet was meant to give props to Marcus smart and Celtics lineups but it indirectly throws shade on Marcus Morris and proves my point completely.

Stop trotting out that combo.
Well, we knew before the season started that Morris is not a full time PF. Brad S seems to still be figuring this one out. Knowing him, it might take a while.
Probably 90% of this forum was clamoring for the starting lineup to be Horford/Morris/Hayward/Brown/Irving before the season started.

I was firmly in the other 10%.

Morris is exactly who he has always been:  We have over 11,000 minutes of data spread across 6+ NBA seasons that shows exactly who he is:  A thoroughly mediocre 'big SF'.   He's a completely average player at his position and a miserably poor PF.   

I never thought he should be in the starting lineup.
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Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2017, 12:23:00 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Using 82games 5 man unit data (which doesn't seem to fully add up), they have Baynes at a total of 214 minutes with 157 of those with Horford on the court also (about 73%).  I think this is based on top 5 man units not all 5 man units so it may not be 100% accurate but the point is that it doesn't matter if Baynes starts or not, he is getting minutes with Horford on the court.  Horford-Baynes is the top front court pairing with Morris-Horford and Tatum-Horford also up there.
Sure, but the problem is when he plays 10 minutes a game and we're getting killed on the boards by Andre Drummond.

Yes.  Both these last two losses have the same thing in common:  The other team played a LOT of minutes with their 'true bigs' while the Celtics played very little minutes.

In the MIA game, the Heat had their three 'true bigs' on the floor for 68 player minutes while we had Horford, Baynes and/or Theis on the floor for only 55 minutes.   That's 13 minutes (more than a whole period) with a significant size disadvantage up front.  We got murdered on the rebounds.

In this last game, DET trotted out a waive of guys who are all long and over 240 pounds.  Between Drummond, Harris, Moreland, Johnson & Tolliver, the constantly had at least 2 big beefsteaks on the floor through the entire game.   We, on the other hand, had Al, Baynes & Theis on the floor for a combined 57 player-minutes.   Last I checked, there were 96 minutes available across the 4 & 5.

In each of these two games, Baynes and Theis combined for less than 25 minutes.

I'm pretty sure we are undefeated, something like 14-0 in games where they combine for at least 35 minutes.

Interesting stat:

The Celtics overall this year have been doing well in rebounding.  The best measure of this is DRB%.  They are currently ranked 4th in the NBA in DRB% at 80.8%.

In lineups with Horford and Morris as the front-court, the team has a DRB% of 72.1%   This would rank dead last in the NBA.

In the lineups with Baynes and Horford as the front-court, the team has a DRB% of 86.6%!!!   This would rank way off the current charts.   Think about it:  That means grabbing basically 9 out of 10 of your opponents misses!!!

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2017, 12:32:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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People somehow seem to lump Theis with Baynes when they talk about "having size". The team lists Theis at 6'9, 243. For reference, this makes him  smaller than Horford (6'10, 245), and CONSIDERABLY smaller than Baynes (6'10, 260).
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2017, 12:36:31 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Using 82games 5 man unit data (which doesn't seem to fully add up), they have Baynes at a total of 214 minutes with 157 of those with Horford on the court also (about 73%).  I think this is based on top 5 man units not all 5 man units so it may not be 100% accurate but the point is that it doesn't matter if Baynes starts or not, he is getting minutes with Horford on the court.  Horford-Baynes is the top front court pairing with Morris-Horford and Tatum-Horford also up there.

The Cs have 6 lineups that have played at least 25 minutes:  http://bkref.com/tiny/V4HPf

Of those, the one with Baynes+Horford+Tatum+Brown+Irving is tops with a Net Rtg of +49.1 points per 100.
The only one of those lineups Morris in it (basically the above but with Morris swapped in for Baynes) is also the only one with a negative (-14.3) rating.

The Cs have 15 lineups with at least 15 minutes on the floor.   Again, the same statements hold true except Morris appears on one other lineup which is positive (Horford+Morris+Brown+Smart+Irving) and there are two other lineups without him that are barely negative (-2.0 & -2.4).   The other 12 lineups all do not include Morris and are all positive.  Baynes is on 3 of the top 4 lineups.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2017, 12:37:04 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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In this last game, DET trotted out a waive of guys who are all long and over 240 pounds.  Between Drummond, Harris, Moreland, Johnson & Tolliver, the constantly had at least 2 big beefsteaks on the floor through the entire game.   We, on the other hand, had Al, Baynes & Theis on the floor for a combined 57 player-minutes.   Last I checked, there were 96 minutes available across the 4 & 5.
Tobias Harris and Anthony Tolliver are not considerably bigger than Marcus Morris. And Eric Moreland is smaller than Horford. Stanley Johnson is 6'7. Let's call this what it was: not being able to contain Drummond.
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Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2017, 12:54:46 PM »

Offline jackpercussion

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I'm concerned the coaches are eventually going to start Baynes and Morris; sending Tatum to the bench.   At the beginning of the season I think we all agreed Tatum would be a reserve.  However, I'm not sure about that right now.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2017, 02:46:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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In this last game, DET trotted out a waive of guys who are all long and over 240 pounds.  Between Drummond, Harris, Moreland, Johnson & Tolliver, the constantly had at least 2 big beefsteaks on the floor through the entire game.   We, on the other hand, had Al, Baynes & Theis on the floor for a combined 57 player-minutes.   Last I checked, there were 96 minutes available across the 4 & 5.
Tobias Harris and Anthony Tolliver are not considerably bigger than Marcus Morris. And Eric Moreland is smaller than Horford. Stanley Johnson is 6'7. Let's call this what it was: not being able to contain Drummond.

Harris has grown a ton since his combine measurements as a 19 year old.  I don't have an official, recent measurement, but he looks almost certainly north of 6' 9" and 240. 

Toliver and Moreland are both listed at 240 lbs.  Johnson is listed at 245.   

And they all play physical games.   Morris, listed generously at 235, does not.

I disagree this was just about Drummond.  This was about being bigger at two or more front-court positions through most of the game.  Because even if you include Morris as a 'big', our combined minutes with AH, MM, AB, DT on the floor was just 79 player-minutes.    And even if you drop Johnson, DET put AD, TH, AT & EM on the floor for a combined 98 player-minutes.   I.E., they even had three big guys on the floor at some points, when shifting Harris to the 3.

Tatum and Jaylen are both long and athletic, but they don't have near the 'beef' of those guys yet.

When we play a front court with Horford at the 5 against that team, we are going to be undersized at the 5 and usually undersized at the 4 & 3.

When we play a front court with Baynes at the 5, then suddenly we are matched up at the 5 and usually bigger at the 4 (if Horford is there) and possibly at the 3.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2017, 02:54:20 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm concerned the coaches are eventually going to start Baynes and Morris; sending Tatum to the bench.   At the beginning of the season I think we all agreed Tatum would be a reserve.  However, I'm not sure about that right now.

Ick.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2017, 12:21:04 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Yeah I don't believe that Morris has earned the starting role.  The Celtics defense has also been much worse the past 4 games.  It might be partly tired legs, or it might be partly Morris.  I feel it's a mix of both.

Morris contract is a bargain, but I don't think he should be more than a rotation player for us.  He's not a viable replacement for Jae Crowder imo.  But he would be ok scoring points for the 2nd unit.

Re: Stop starting Morris!!!
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2017, 06:25:01 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
He's not a viable replacement for Jae Crowder imo

I call BS, what are you basing this assumption on because it is clear it is not stats.

His stats are pretty close to Crowder's last year.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6462/marcus-morris

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6581/jae-crowder

Morris has the better career stats and stats this year.

I can see wanting to keep him for the second unit for scoring pop, though.  But to be honest, I trust CBS decision more than most on this blog as should we all.