Author Topic: Okafor and agent getting upset (Merged thread)  (Read 3324 times)

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Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2017, 10:24:48 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
It's possible MCW learned bad habits in Philly but I think it's just as possible that the only reason we know his name now is because Philly gave him an opportunity to play that no other team would have because he just isn't that good.

I'm still confused about Turner. He was on Philly when they were a playoff team and was traded to another playoff team when "the process" began, when he was 25. Whatever Turner's development curve was is on the previous administration.

EDIT: Sorry for basically repeating Moranis, I didn't see his post when I wrote my reply.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2017, 10:35:20 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons.  The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all.  He just wasn't very good. 

Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team.  He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.  The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).

I edited the comment above to include this list.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.

The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example.  He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons.  One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year.  You can't include players like that.  Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on.  Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly.   What impact did he make?  Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly?  Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league.  Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player.  The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative.  I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract).  Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors.  He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts.  How is this a knock on the Process?  KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started?  Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year. 

I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this.  And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson.  The fact they even played in the league is amazing.  And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above).  All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts).  Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2017, 10:44:35 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons.  The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all.  He just wasn't very good. 

Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team.  He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.  The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).

I edited the comment above to include this list.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.

The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example.  He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons.  One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year.  You can't include players like that.  Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on.  Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly.   What impact did he make?  Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly?  Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league.  Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player.  The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative.  I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract).  Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors.  He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts.  How is this a knock on the Process?  KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started?  Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year. 

I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this.  And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson.  The fact they even played in the league is amazing.  And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above).  All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts).  Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.

I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2017, 10:50:34 AM »

Offline ThePaintedArea

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We could use him as a scorer on the bench. He rebounds and scores. I’ll take it

No, doesn't rebound. Last year DRR 15.5% ORR 7.8% in 1134 minutes.  No ambiguity here: that is plain awful.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2017, 10:55:39 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons.  The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all.  He just wasn't very good. 

Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team.  He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.  The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).

I edited the comment above to include this list.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.

The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage, and that is sacrificing a lot of players for the franchise.
And doing so makes your comment even more nonsensical.  Most of the players you mention were late 1st or worse picks.  Sully was more highly rated than pretty much all of them and he's playing in China now. 

Hawes was a 6 year vet before the process started.  Turner had played 3 seasons before the process started.  Hinkie wisely traded both of them a half season into the process.  Hinkie made a steal of a trade getting a good unprotected 1st for MCW.  MCW subsequently flopped in Milwaukee and Chicago.  McDaniels played less than a season for the Sixers.  He subsequently flopped for 2 more seasons in Houston.   Dedmon only played 11 games for the Sixers.  He was traded twice in the 13-14 season alone.  Grant actually is a process success story,  He played a lot during his couple years with the Sixers and OKC actually gave up a protected 1st for him. 

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2017, 11:07:30 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons.  The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all.  He just wasn't very good. 

Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team.  He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.  The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).

I edited the comment above to include this list.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.

The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example.  He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons.  One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year.  You can't include players like that.  Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on.  Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly.   What impact did he make?  Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly?  Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league.  Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player.  The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative.  I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract).  Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors.  He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts.  How is this a knock on the Process?  KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started?  Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year. 

I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this.  And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson.  The fact they even played in the league is amazing.  And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above).  All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts).  Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.

I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.
So using your same logic, what are you going to blame all our draft prospect failures on starting with Young and Sully?   

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2017, 11:16:43 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I respect him for speaking out at this point.  The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.

This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.

They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense.  Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons.  The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them. 

Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid.  Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas.  Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel? 

Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league.  Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time.  He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season.  He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.

Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.

I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.

Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.

I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.

Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons.  The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all.  He just wasn't very good. 

Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team.  He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.  The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).

I edited the comment above to include this list.

Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.

I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.

The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example.  He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons.  One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year.  You can't include players like that.  Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on.  Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly.   What impact did he make?  Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly?  Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league.  Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player.  The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative.  I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract).  Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors.  He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts.  How is this a knock on the Process?  KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started?  Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year. 

I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this.  And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson.  The fact they even played in the league is amazing.  And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above).  All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts).  Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.

I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.
I will say it, the process had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players.  They were 2nd round picks or undrafted players for a reason.  They weren't high end prospects.  MCW, Noel, and Okafor have been the only lottery picks that haven't panned out, and the fact that MCW and Noel have done nothing since Philly leads me easily to the conclusion that it wasn't Philly that was the problem, it was the players.  I don't think Okafor is being treated fairly by Philly, but he was always a flawed player defensively, and his offensive strength is less important in the league these days so I'm not sure if he ended up in NY or LA he would have been a better player (I'm sure he would have played more, but that doesn't mean he would be better). 
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Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2017, 11:20:32 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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How did this turn into debating the career of second round picks? Do people think philly should just release okafor at this point? It seems like his agent may start to hurt philly down the road by not going out of his way to send players there. That alone is probably worth a second round pick.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2017, 11:28:32 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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They play with pace (like We do)  Okafor does not fit that style of play their..

The Sixers and the Celtics play at very, very different paces.

The Sixers are 4th in the league in pace at 102.8 possessions per game.

The Celtics are 22nd in the league at 96.4 possessions per game.

Neither team actually scores all that much in transition.  Both are middle-of-the-pack in fast break points per game (Boston is 16th, PHI is 20th).   The Sixers do try more fast-break attempts but are in fact not really very good at it, ranking 26th in fast-break scoring efficiency.  The C's are middle-of-the-pack at 19th.

The biggest difference between the two is that the Sixers tend to let opponents score quickly.  Half of opponent shots come in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock and the Sixers are giving up 51.6 points per game on those shots.

The C's excel at slowing the game down on defense and forcing teams to play a half-court game.  Only 44% of opponent shots are happening within the first 10 seconds of the shot-clock and they are giving up just 36.8 points per game on those shots.   

And when Brad talks about playing with pace on offense, he isn't really talking about fast-break opportunities. He's talking about how fast the ball and players move when executing the offense.   Quick, passing-with-purpose with multiple people touching the ball is a signature of Brad's offense when it is executed well.   The C's use the clock and some 61% of their offense is _after_ 10 seconds into the clock.

The Sixers do try to work faster (as noted, they do more fast break attempts) and only 51% of their offense occurs after the first 10 seconds.

So, the net net of this is that:  The C's work at a _very_ different 'pace' on both ends of the court than the Sixers do.  They work much more methodically and more out of the half-court execution on both ends.
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Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2017, 11:31:42 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Agree to disagree with some of you. I understand your way of thinking.

To me, there is too clear a connection between the way the philly organization has run itself and the lack of development in most of their prospects.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2017, 11:40:23 AM »

Offline footey

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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship.  That is not the case.  He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2017, 11:42:47 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship.  That is not the case.  He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.

Depends if he were released and signed or if he were traded for.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2017, 11:42:59 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I think the problem with Okafor lies with the timeline of Philadelphia finally picking a direction. The 76ers used lottery picks three years in a row on big men with very little outside games. The problem for Philly was they realized too late that the direction the league was going and that your PF needs to be athletic and handle the ball. Was Philly too short sighted and didn't realize that the prototypical PF in Simmons would be available one year later? Did they not do their homework on Porzingis or reluctant to trade down for someone like Devin Booker?

I remember watching Okafor and Towns in college. Okafor was clearly the better college player and was unstoppable in the post. The difference in the pro's is that Minnesota built a team with Towns in mind. Philly, on the other hand, picked Okafor with him being the best player available at the time but didn't know what to do with him once he was drafted.

Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2017, 11:44:47 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Agree to disagree with some of you. I understand your way of thinking.

To me, there is too clear a connection between the way the philly organization has run itself and the lack of development in most of their prospects.
2nd round picks aren't prospects, at least not in the traditional sense of the word.  Most of the time they don't even make the league for more than a season.
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Re: Okafor and agent getting upset
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2017, 12:39:26 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I don't think Okafor is doing anything wrong here.  He didn't say anything in the ESPN article that i would not expect him to say and he had probably said everything directly to the Sixers already.  Now he may be really lazy at practice or there could be some other behind the scenes issue but I don't get that feeling.  He seems like a young player who believes he can play and wants a chance.

As for the Celtics, it does not seem like a good fit for him right now.  We need players to be reliable or predictable.  We can't put a guy out there who is taking his lumps and learning.  Just doesn't make sense to me.  I would consider signing him as a free agent with a training camp and preseason but not as a mid season add.