Author Topic: Glad we didn't get Paul George.  (Read 2349 times)

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Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2017, 04:25:38 PM »

Online Moranis

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I still think if the OKC figures it out they pose the biggest threat to the Warriors.  They are the one team that has enough offensive and defensive firepower (and at the right positions) to really give the Warriors fits in a series.  You saw what they could be in the game they played earlier this year.  Westbrook is a match-up nightmare for Curry.  George will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  Roberson is a great defender to handle Thompson.  Anthony pulls Green out of the paint or can easily post up Iggy if they play smaller.  Adams and Patterson are an interesting combo at center.  Grant, Felton, Abrines, and Huestis are quality bench guards/wings.  They clearly have some growing pains, but if they figure it out, the West should take notice.
Not sure how you come up with this stuff but OKC's bench looks absolutely pathetic.  Reminds me of how you used to overrate all of Philly's scrubs who aren't even in the league anymore.  Huestis averages 2 points and has a PER of 3.  Abrines averages 4 points and has a PER of 6.  They aren't NBA players. 

I don't see the team making much noise.  Besides having no bench they seem to play pretty lazy.  I think George is the best piece on the whole team.  Westbrook is a ballhog who tries to do way too much, Melo is a ballhog who does far too little except for shot attempts.  I'm not impressed at all with the team.
Abrines and Huestis are 9th and 10th men.  San Antonio for example has Bryn Forbes and Brandon Paul in those slots right now.  Houston has 37 year old Nene and Tarik Black manning those spots.  The Warriors have Omri Casspi and Kevon Looney (though 37 year old West has played less, so maybe he bumps them down a slot).  Even Boston's 9th and 10th men are Semi and Theis (who have played well for rookies, but aren't exactly world beaters and are rookies).  I'd take my chances with Abrines and Huestis as compared to any of those teams 9th and 10th men, especially Abrines who had a fairly decorated European career before coming to OKC prior to last season.

Over at bball-ref, OKC's projected W/L is 12-7.  They have the 2nd best DRTG at 101.4 (giving up just 98.1 ppg).  Their ORTG is 105.4 (21st) and they are scoring 102 (23rd).  Their SRS is 2.96 or 6th out of 30.  The metrics love OKC.  They've had a lot of close losses and have blown out teams when they win.  As they find a bit more consistency and comfort, they will start winning some of the close games they've been losing and their record will start to reflect that. 

OKC is the most dangerous team in the NBA if they can figure it out and they have the talent to figure it out.

The OKC bench is bad.  Of the 343 players who’ve seen at least 100 minutes of playing time this year, Huestis, Patterson, and Abrines are all in the bottom 20 for PER, at the 5th, 15th, and 19th-lowest numbers.  I think PER is imperfect as a stat, as are all gestalt stats, but having three guys in your rotation in the 5th percentile and below is terrible.  And the bench behind them is even worse — Singler is only in the NBA because the Thunder can’t figure out how to move his contract, Collison is simply a locker-room presence, and Dakari Johnson and Terrance Ferguson are non-contributing rookies.

And this isn’t surprising.  When you make trades to acquire two players on max contracts, necessarily you’ll have to send a lot of depth just to match salaries, never mind matching talent.  Ultimately their record will come close to matching their point differential, and they should be a playoff team.  But if an injury strikes any of their top 7, they’ll be forced to rely on this trio even more, and likely have to slide someone even worse into the rotation as well.  They’re definitely walking a bit of a tightrope.  Ultimately, this will cost them in playoff seeding, and the home court advantage that comes with it, perhaps even in the first round.
Deeper rotational players, I'm sure Semi, Brandon Paul, and plenty of other deeper rotational players on contenders are down near the bottom in that stat as well.  I'm also sure, poor shooting negatively effects PER.  Patterson is well below his normal shooting percentages.  I'm sure he will recover a bit.  Abrines is shooting a lot worse than last year so far as well.  Maybe they have regressed as players, though that seems unlikely. 

They are obviously thin though and a serious injury would derail them more than most teams.  But if I'm the Warriors, I'm hoping the Thunder don't play me in the playoffs. 
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Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2017, 04:36:07 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Arguably it was an epic success because it got Russ to sign long term.  He didn't give up that much for either player in the scheme of things.

Hottest and most correct take of the day. It literally doesn't matter how well this version goes over, because it got Russ to sign. Melo is off the books soon, and George could be gone this year. They served their purpose. They build around Russ going forward.

And where will that get them exactly? They are going to be paying Russ like $40M a season eventually. So let’s lose PG13 for nothing to the Lakers and let Melo walk, but they still have Russ locked up!

What happens next? You have a disgruntled star making so much money without the ability to add talent around them or the willingness to deal him to bring back $35M+ in (most likely) bad contracts.

These new supermaxes are going to crush teams eventually, and I believe that was the point of them, so you can’t have 3-4 max guys together anymore. Some may have 2, but 3 seems impossible even if the cap balloons. Parity may be around the corner.

I don’t even think the Warriors can keep their core very much longer. Will the C’s be able to extend Marcus? Then give Kyrie a new contract while doing the same for Brown/Tatum. All while finding a way to retain Horford?

So either we go back to the days of one- or two-star teams or the NBA eventually going to an even more lenient soft cap.

My post was misleading. I'm not saying it's good or bad that the saddled up to Westbrook, just that it was the main goal.

I agree it probably wasn't the best look.Westbrook will not be the same player he is now once he is getting 35 or 40 million a year. His athleticism has to wane at some point, and when it does, his game will drop a bit.
Hey AFOS, I am glass you fessed up.  I think we know what you were trying to say but sounded like Westbrook is the ONLY thing that matters and it simply not the case.  Any team with Westbrook should be building around him, which is what I thought they were doing.  However, in that worst case scenario you mention they will have to do that without Melo, without PG, without Oladipo and without Sabonis.  That just doesn't seem like progress.

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2017, 05:41:47 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I still think if the OKC figures it out they pose the biggest threat to the Warriors.  They are the one team that has enough offensive and defensive firepower (and at the right positions) to really give the Warriors fits in a series.  You saw what they could be in the game they played earlier this year.  Westbrook is a match-up nightmare for Curry.  George will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  Roberson is a great defender to handle Thompson.  Anthony pulls Green out of the paint or can easily post up Iggy if they play smaller.  Adams and Patterson are an interesting combo at center.  Grant, Felton, Abrines, and Huestis are quality bench guards/wings.  They clearly have some growing pains, but if they figure it out, the West should take notice.
Not sure how you come up with this stuff but OKC's bench looks absolutely pathetic.  Reminds me of how you used to overrate all of Philly's scrubs who aren't even in the league anymore.  Huestis averages 2 points and has a PER of 3.  Abrines averages 4 points and has a PER of 6.  They aren't NBA players. 

I don't see the team making much noise.  Besides having no bench they seem to play pretty lazy.  I think George is the best piece on the whole team.  Westbrook is a ballhog who tries to do way too much, Melo is a ballhog who does far too little except for shot attempts.  I'm not impressed at all with the team.
Abrines and Huestis are 9th and 10th men.  San Antonio for example has Bryn Forbes and Brandon Paul in those slots right now.  Houston has 37 year old Nene and Tarik Black manning those spots.  The Warriors have Omri Casspi and Kevon Looney (though 37 year old West has played less, so maybe he bumps them down a slot).  Even Boston's 9th and 10th men are Semi and Theis (who have played well for rookies, but aren't exactly world beaters and are rookies).  I'd take my chances with Abrines and Huestis as compared to any of those teams 9th and 10th men, especially Abrines who had a fairly decorated European career before coming to OKC prior to last season.

Over at bball-ref, OKC's projected W/L is 12-7.  They have the 2nd best DRTG at 101.4 (giving up just 98.1 ppg).  Their ORTG is 105.4 (21st) and they are scoring 102 (23rd).  Their SRS is 2.96 or 6th out of 30.  The metrics love OKC.  They've had a lot of close losses and have blown out teams when they win.  As they find a bit more consistency and comfort, they will start winning some of the close games they've been losing and their record will start to reflect that. 

OKC is the most dangerous team in the NBA if they can figure it out and they have the talent to figure it out.

The OKC bench is bad.  Of the 343 players who’ve seen at least 100 minutes of playing time this year, Huestis, Patterson, and Abrines are all in the bottom 20 for PER, at the 5th, 15th, and 19th-lowest numbers.  I think PER is imperfect as a stat, as are all gestalt stats, but having three guys in your rotation in the 5th percentile and below is terrible.  And the bench behind them is even worse — Singler is only in the NBA because the Thunder can’t figure out how to move his contract, Collison is simply a locker-room presence, and Dakari Johnson and Terrance Ferguson are non-contributing rookies.

And this isn’t surprising.  When you make trades to acquire two players on max contracts, necessarily you’ll have to send a lot of depth just to match salaries, never mind matching talent.  Ultimately their record will come close to matching their point differential, and they should be a playoff team.  But if an injury strikes any of their top 7, they’ll be forced to rely on this trio even more, and likely have to slide someone even worse into the rotation as well.  They’re definitely walking a bit of a tightrope.  Ultimately, this will cost them in playoff seeding, and the home court advantage that comes with it, perhaps even in the first round.

Well said. The Thunder do not have a good bench right now. They may be able to get a vet min guy or two at buyouts though.

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2017, 05:50:44 PM »

Offline Thruthelookingglass

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Paul George was a tenuous trade for us because it was likely only a one year rental.  But I never imagined that we would get Kyrie at the time.  There is simply no question that we are better off.  Same for any potential Jimmy Butler trades.

Hit the nail on the head.  Is our GM lucky or good, or both?  Kyrie is just a force, and so far even better than I imagined.

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2017, 06:38:47 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I still think if the OKC figures it out they pose the biggest threat to the Warriors.  They are the one team that has enough offensive and defensive firepower (and at the right positions) to really give the Warriors fits in a series.  You saw what they could be in the game they played earlier this year.  Westbrook is a match-up nightmare for Curry.  George will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  Roberson is a great defender to handle Thompson.  Anthony pulls Green out of the paint or can easily post up Iggy if they play smaller.  Adams and Patterson are an interesting combo at center.  Grant, Felton, Abrines, and Huestis are quality bench guards/wings.  They clearly have some growing pains, but if they figure it out, the West should take notice.
Not sure how you come up with this stuff but OKC's bench looks absolutely pathetic.  Reminds me of how you used to overrate all of Philly's scrubs who aren't even in the league anymore.  Huestis averages 2 points and has a PER of 3.  Abrines averages 4 points and has a PER of 6.  They aren't NBA players. 

I don't see the team making much noise.  Besides having no bench they seem to play pretty lazy.  I think George is the best piece on the whole team.  Westbrook is a ballhog who tries to do way too much, Melo is a ballhog who does far too little except for shot attempts.  I'm not impressed at all with the team.
Abrines and Huestis are 9th and 10th men.  San Antonio for example has Bryn Forbes and Brandon Paul in those slots right now.  Houston has 37 year old Nene and Tarik Black manning those spots.  The Warriors have Omri Casspi and Kevon Looney (though 37 year old West has played less, so maybe he bumps them down a slot).  Even Boston's 9th and 10th men are Semi and Theis (who have played well for rookies, but aren't exactly world beaters and are rookies).  I'd take my chances with Abrines and Huestis as compared to any of those teams 9th and 10th men, especially Abrines who had a fairly decorated European career before coming to OKC prior to last season.

Over at bball-ref, OKC's projected W/L is 12-7.  They have the 2nd best DRTG at 101.4 (giving up just 98.1 ppg).  Their ORTG is 105.4 (21st) and they are scoring 102 (23rd).  Their SRS is 2.96 or 6th out of 30.  The metrics love OKC.  They've had a lot of close losses and have blown out teams when they win.  As they find a bit more consistency and comfort, they will start winning some of the close games they've been losing and their record will start to reflect that. 

OKC is the most dangerous team in the NBA if they can figure it out and they have the talent to figure it out.

The OKC bench is bad.  Of the 343 players who’ve seen at least 100 minutes of playing time this year, Huestis, Patterson, and Abrines are all in the bottom 20 for PER, at the 5th, 15th, and 19th-lowest numbers.  I think PER is imperfect as a stat, as are all gestalt stats, but having three guys in your rotation in the 5th percentile and below is terrible.  And the bench behind them is even worse — Singler is only in the NBA because the Thunder can’t figure out how to move his contract, Collison is simply a locker-room presence, and Dakari Johnson and Terrance Ferguson are non-contributing rookies.

And this isn’t surprising.  When you make trades to acquire two players on max contracts, necessarily you’ll have to send a lot of depth just to match salaries, never mind matching talent.  Ultimately their record will come close to matching their point differential, and they should be a playoff team.  But if an injury strikes any of their top 7, they’ll be forced to rely on this trio even more, and likely have to slide someone even worse into the rotation as well.  They’re definitely walking a bit of a tightrope.  Ultimately, this will cost them in playoff seeding, and the home court advantage that comes with it, perhaps even in the first round.
Deeper rotational players, I'm sure Semi, Brandon Paul, and plenty of other deeper rotational players on contenders are down near the bottom in that stat as well.  I'm also sure, poor shooting negatively effects PER.  Patterson is well below his normal shooting percentages.  I'm sure he will recover a bit.  Abrines is shooting a lot worse than last year so far as well.  Maybe they have regressed as players, though that seems unlikely. 

They are obviously thin though and a serious injury would derail them more than most teams.  But if I'm the Warriors, I'm hoping the Thunder don't play me in the playoffs.

What you’re missing is that when you look at Semi and Theis (and Larkin) is that those guys were supposed to be 10-12th in the rotation when things were planned in the offseason.  Same with Paul and Forbes in San Antonio.  But those guys have gotten a lot of playing time due to injury.  The Celtics have lost essentially 38 games (including the games where Hayward and Irving were injured early) from their top 9 in the rotation.  The Spurs have missed 42, with Parker and Leonard yet to play.  The Thunder have lost 4 games from their top 9.  Things are going as planned and the Thunder are giving nearly 20% of their minutes to players who are fringe rotation quality at best, and there’s no one behind those guys.

I’m sure the Warriors would rather play the Spurs without Parker and Leonard than they would a full-strength Thunder team.  But when/if those two come back (I think Parker returns tonight) you’ll see Paul and Forbes drop out of the rotation and be used situationally.  If Hayward comes back, the same will happen to Semi/Theis/Larkin.  This is who the Thunder are.  And that bench is not prepared to handle adversity, and is definitely the Achilles heel of their team. 

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2017, 06:44:08 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I still think if the OKC figures it out they pose the biggest threat to the Warriors.  They are the one team that has enough offensive and defensive firepower (and at the right positions) to really give the Warriors fits in a series.  You saw what they could be in the game they played earlier this year.  Westbrook is a match-up nightmare for Curry.  George will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  Roberson is a great defender to handle Thompson.  Anthony pulls Green out of the paint or can easily post up Iggy if they play smaller.  Adams and Patterson are an interesting combo at center.  Grant, Felton, Abrines, and Huestis are quality bench guards/wings.  They clearly have some growing pains, but if they figure it out, the West should take notice.
Not sure how you come up with this stuff but OKC's bench looks absolutely pathetic.  Reminds me of how you used to overrate all of Philly's scrubs who aren't even in the league anymore.  Huestis averages 2 points and has a PER of 3.  Abrines averages 4 points and has a PER of 6.  They aren't NBA players. 

I don't see the team making much noise.  Besides having no bench they seem to play pretty lazy.  I think George is the best piece on the whole team.  Westbrook is a ballhog who tries to do way too much, Melo is a ballhog who does far too little except for shot attempts.  I'm not impressed at all with the team.
Abrines and Huestis are 9th and 10th men.  San Antonio for example has Bryn Forbes and Brandon Paul in those slots right now.  Houston has 37 year old Nene and Tarik Black manning those spots.  The Warriors have Omri Casspi and Kevon Looney (though 37 year old West has played less, so maybe he bumps them down a slot).  Even Boston's 9th and 10th men are Semi and Theis (who have played well for rookies, but aren't exactly world beaters and are rookies).  I'd take my chances with Abrines and Huestis as compared to any of those teams 9th and 10th men, especially Abrines who had a fairly decorated European career before coming to OKC prior to last season.

Over at bball-ref, OKC's projected W/L is 12-7.  They have the 2nd best DRTG at 101.4 (giving up just 98.1 ppg).  Their ORTG is 105.4 (21st) and they are scoring 102 (23rd).  Their SRS is 2.96 or 6th out of 30.  The metrics love OKC.  They've had a lot of close losses and have blown out teams when they win.  As they find a bit more consistency and comfort, they will start winning some of the close games they've been losing and their record will start to reflect that. 

OKC is the most dangerous team in the NBA if they can figure it out and they have the talent to figure it out.

The OKC bench is bad.  Of the 343 players who’ve seen at least 100 minutes of playing time this year, Huestis, Patterson, and Abrines are all in the bottom 20 for PER, at the 5th, 15th, and 19th-lowest numbers.  I think PER is imperfect as a stat, as are all gestalt stats, but having three guys in your rotation in the 5th percentile and below is terrible.  And the bench behind them is even worse — Singler is only in the NBA because the Thunder can’t figure out how to move his contract, Collison is simply a locker-room presence, and Dakari Johnson and Terrance Ferguson are non-contributing rookies.

And this isn’t surprising.  When you make trades to acquire two players on max contracts, necessarily you’ll have to send a lot of depth just to match salaries, never mind matching talent.  Ultimately their record will come close to matching their point differential, and they should be a playoff team.  But if an injury strikes any of their top 7, they’ll be forced to rely on this trio even more, and likely have to slide someone even worse into the rotation as well.  They’re definitely walking a bit of a tightrope.  Ultimately, this will cost them in playoff seeding, and the home court advantage that comes with it, perhaps even in the first round.
Deeper rotational players, I'm sure Semi, Brandon Paul, and plenty of other deeper rotational players on contenders are down near the bottom in that stat as well.  I'm also sure, poor shooting negatively effects PER.  Patterson is well below his normal shooting percentages.  I'm sure he will recover a bit.  Abrines is shooting a lot worse than last year so far as well.  Maybe they have regressed as players, though that seems unlikely. 

They are obviously thin though and a serious injury would derail them more than most teams.  But if I'm the Warriors, I'm hoping the Thunder don't play me in the playoffs.

What you’re missing is that when you look at Semi and Theis (and Larkin) is that those guys were supposed to be 10-12th in the rotation when things were planned in the offseason.  Same with Paul and Forbes in San Antonio.  But those guys have gotten a lot of playing time due to injury.  The Celtics have lost essentially 38 games (including the games where Hayward and Irving were injured early) from their top 9 in the rotation.  The Spurs have missed 42, with Parker and Leonard yet to play.  The Thunder have lost 4 games from their top 9.  Things are going as planned and the Thunder are giving nearly 20% of their minutes to players who are fringe rotation quality at best, and there’s no one behind those guys.

I’m sure the Warriors would rather play the Spurs without Parker and Leonard than they would a full-strength Thunder team.  But when/if those two come back (I think Parker returns tonight) you’ll see Paul and Forbes drop out of the rotation and be used situationally.  If Hayward comes back, the same will happen to Semi/Theis/Larkin.  This is who the Thunder are.  And that bench is not prepared to handle adversity, and is definitely the Achilles heel of their team.

The Thunder will get pretty ugly quick if they even approach normal injuries. Also makes you appreciate how much better and deeper we would be with hayward.

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2017, 10:27:15 AM »

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3 straight wins for the Thunder over the Wolves, Spurs, and Jazz all teams above .500 and ahead of them in the standings.  Now granted all 3 games were at home, but maybe that is what they needed to turn the corner.  In the Spurs and Wolves games Anthony had less shots than Adams in both games.  If he takes that type of role it would help them out a great deal (he had a lot of shots in the Jazz game though). 
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Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2017, 10:42:28 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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3 straight wins for the Thunder over the Wolves, Spurs, and Jazz all teams above .500 and ahead of them in the standings.  Now granted all 3 games were at home, but maybe that is what they needed to turn the corner.  In the Spurs and Wolves games Anthony had less shots than Adams in both games.  If he takes that type of role it would help them out a great deal (he had a lot of shots in the Jazz game though).
the correction was inevitable.

This Thunder team was way too talented to be 4 games under .500.

How good are they really? Im not sure. Preseason I think I had them 4th in the West. Might still have them there. I think Minny will fall off a little bit.

Problem is that the West has 3 god-tier teams (GSW, Hou, SAS). I really dont see OKC even coming close to that group and this might be their only shot at it. If they get smacked in the second round does George come back? I dont know.
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Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2017, 11:28:04 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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I think it's difficult for a coach to integrate another star into his system. To try to integrate two stars is probably too much. Plus they gave up a lot of depth to do it.

Anthony was one star too much. There aren't enough basketballs to go around. And these guys don't play the dirty work defense which is important to win games.

Re: Glad we didn't get Paul George.
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2017, 11:48:40 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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I think it's difficult for a coach to integrate another star into his system. To try to integrate two stars is probably too much. Plus they gave up a lot of depth to do it.

Anthony was one star too much. There aren't enough basketballs to go around. And these guys don't play the dirty work defense which is important to win games.

I think as we are seeing 'super teams' starting to fail it really speaks highly of, and how selfless, KG, Ray and PP were. I get they were at a different time in their careers, but so were Kobe and Nash and that didn't work out.