Author Topic: Texas church shooting  (Read 1137 times)

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 08:16:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Btw, one of the things I love about this site is that we are able to (for the most part) have insightful conversations about difficult topics like this.  Normally a thread pops up very quickly about a major news event like this.  Unless I missed it this is the first thread about this shooting which happened on Sunday...is that a sign that we have (sadly) become so accustomed to mass shootings that it is no longer something that is a "must discuss" topic here on CB?

I would say fatigued, rather than accustomed. It’s just depressing to talk about murdered children and pregnant women.


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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 08:27:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

That's 750,000 Americans dead over the last 25 years due to guns. If a foreign country or terrorist group did that to America we would be in constant war to stop them. But Americans find those numbers acceptable somehow.

Just a sad indictment on American society, imho.

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 08:39:39 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

A lot die eating twinkies being morbidly obese, do you think we ought to outlaw sweets?  JK

It is sad really.  It is a problem.  I am for sensible gun control.   No one save active duty soldiers need the big magazines or the like.  I say this as a veteran.

I am grateful for those two heroes who brought this crap-pile of humanity to justice!   
Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff my hat is off to you guys!

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 08:52:31 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Quote
A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

A lot die eating twinkies being morbidly obese, do you think we ought to outlaw sweets?  JK

It is sad really.  It is a problem.  I am for sensible gun control.   No one save active duty soldiers need the big magazines or the like.  I say this as a veteran.

I am grateful for those two heroes who brought this crap-pile of humanity to justice!   
Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff my hat is off to you guys!
I agree. Sensible gun control has to take place. Unfortunately, due to these mass murders and rifle like weapons being used in them, people tend to think the concentration should be on those type of weapons. The real need for gun control is for handguns. They kill exponentially more people in this country than larger weapons. Sensible gun control should start with a major move to get handguns off the streets and out of society.

Conceal and carry is a ridiculous thing too, imo. We don't need the populace to be walking around, secretly armed like this is the wild, wild west.

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 09:25:12 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.
When I see a republican stand up in senate/congress and demand emergency funding to streamline, update, and nationalize some system for background checks to close loopholes and adequately enforce existing laws I will know that this is a legitimate concern and not just an NRA distraction talking point.

I’m sure this is self-serving, and I haven’t researched it, but Ted Cruz says that Republicans tried some measures related to background checks and felons:

Quote
“We could have prevented this,” Cruz said, “in 2013 in the wake of Sandy Hook, I joined with Chuck Grassley, we introduced legislation that was called the Grassley-Cruz legislation. And it was aggressive legislation targeting felons and violent criminals to stop them from getting guns.”

“There were a couple of elements of that legislation that were critical,” he explained. “One, it mandated that federal agencies, including the Air Force, report to the NCIS because that was a problem back then.”

“But two, and this is an even more critical piece,” he added. “If it had been reported to the background database, when he went into academy to buy these weapons, he lied on the forms – that is a felony to lie on those forms.”

“The Obama administration didn’t prosecute those cases,” he continued. “In 2010, 40,000 felons and fugitives lied and illegally tried to purchase guns – they prosecuted only 44 of them.”

“Gun control for felons and fugitives yes, for individual citizens,” Cruz concluded, “for law-abiding citizens, no, and the Democrats filibustered the legislation that would have resulted in this shooter being in federal prison instead of murdering those innocents in that Texas church.”


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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 09:33:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.
When I see a republican stand up in senate/congress and demand emergency funding to streamline, update, and nationalize some system for background checks to close loopholes and adequately enforce existing laws I will know that this is a legitimate concern and not just an NRA distraction talking point.

I’m sure this is self-serving, and I haven’t researched it, but Ted Cruz says that Republicans tried some measures related to background checks and felons:

Quote
“We could have prevented this,” Cruz said, “in 2013 in the wake of Sandy Hook, I joined with Chuck Grassley, we introduced legislation that was called the Grassley-Cruz legislation. And it was aggressive legislation targeting felons and violent criminals to stop them from getting guns.”

“There were a couple of elements of that legislation that were critical,” he explained. “One, it mandated that federal agencies, including the Air Force, report to the NCIS because that was a problem back then.”

“But two, and this is an even more critical piece,” he added. “If it had been reported to the background database, when he went into academy to buy these weapons, he lied on the forms – that is a felony to lie on those forms.”

“The Obama administration didn’t prosecute those cases,” he continued. “In 2010, 40,000 felons and fugitives lied and illegally tried to purchase guns – they prosecuted only 44 of them.”

“Gun control for felons and fugitives yes, for individual citizens,” Cruz concluded, “for law-abiding citizens, no, and the Democrats filibustered the legislation that would have resulted in this shooter being in federal prison instead of murdering those innocents in that Texas church.”
Yeah, I'ld love a fact check on this. This just sounds like Cruz trying to deflect blame away from very lax gun control laws and incompetent enforcement of them in his home state.

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 09:38:35 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.
When I see a republican stand up in senate/congress and demand emergency funding to streamline, update, and nationalize some system for background checks to close loopholes and adequately enforce existing laws I will know that this is a legitimate concern and not just an NRA distraction talking point.

I’m sure this is self-serving, and I haven’t researched it, but Ted Cruz says that Republicans tried some measures related to background checks and felons:

Quote
“We could have prevented this,” Cruz said, “in 2013 in the wake of Sandy Hook, I joined with Chuck Grassley, we introduced legislation that was called the Grassley-Cruz legislation. And it was aggressive legislation targeting felons and violent criminals to stop them from getting guns.”

“There were a couple of elements of that legislation that were critical,” he explained. “One, it mandated that federal agencies, including the Air Force, report to the NCIS because that was a problem back then.”

“But two, and this is an even more critical piece,” he added. “If it had been reported to the background database, when he went into academy to buy these weapons, he lied on the forms – that is a felony to lie on those forms.”

“The Obama administration didn’t prosecute those cases,” he continued. “In 2010, 40,000 felons and fugitives lied and illegally tried to purchase guns – they prosecuted only 44 of them.”

“Gun control for felons and fugitives yes, for individual citizens,” Cruz concluded, “for law-abiding citizens, no, and the Democrats filibustered the legislation that would have resulted in this shooter being in federal prison instead of murdering those innocents in that Texas church.”
Yeah, I'ld love a fact check on this. This just sounds like Cruz trying to deflect blame away from very lax gun control laws and incompetent enforcement of them in his home state.

Some quick research shows that Cruz is probably right regarding the benefits of the bill, but it also would have expanded interstate sales and transportation of guns.


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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2017, 09:38:39 PM »

Offline Dannys Chipotle Guy

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A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

A lot die eating twinkies being morbidly obese, do you think we ought to outlaw sweets?  JK

It is sad really.  It is a problem.  I am for sensible gun control.   No one save active duty soldiers need the big magazines or the like.  I say this as a veteran.

I am grateful for those two heroes who brought this crap-pile of humanity to justice!   
Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff my hat is off to you guys!
I agree. Sensible gun control has to take place. Unfortunately, due to these mass murders and rifle like weapons being used in them, people tend to think the concentration should be on those type of weapons. The real need for gun control is for handguns. They kill exponentially more people in this country than larger weapons. Sensible gun control should start with a major move to get handguns off the streets and out of society.

Conceal and carry is a ridiculous thing too, imo. We don't need the populace to be walking around, secretly armed like this is the wild, wild west.
Problem there is that the easiest way to sell gun control in this country is by pointing at mass shootings and saying "No one needs a gun like that".

Those are the events that drive gun control debates.

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 09:54:20 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Btw, one of the things I love about this site is that we are able to (for the most part) have insightful conversations about difficult topics like this.  Normally a thread pops up very quickly about a major news event like this.  Unless I missed it this is the first thread about this shooting which happened on Sunday...is that a sign that we have (sadly) become so accustomed to mass shootings that it is no longer something that is a "must discuss" topic here on CB?

That is one of my favorite things about CB, too. There have already been some very insightful responses with which I totally agree (TPs awarded) so I won't go into the gun laws/assault rifle debate.

I will address your last point, though. I think it is difficult to have the same level of outrage every time something like this happens. Roy used the word, 'fatigued,' which is one way to describe how people feel, but I am also realizing that there is probably never going to be anything revolutionary done about gun control or the amount of guns people have. Unfortunately, the NRA has a massive grip on America. I guess I am now just basically feeling hopeless.

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 10:07:47 PM »

Offline More Banners

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I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.
When I see a republican stand up in senate/congress and demand emergency funding to streamline, update, and nationalize some system for background checks to close loopholes and adequately enforce existing laws I will know that this is a legitimate concern and not just an NRA distraction talking point.

I’m sure this is self-serving, and I haven’t researched it, but Ted Cruz says that Republicans tried some measures related to background checks and felons:

Quote
“We could have prevented this,” Cruz said, “in 2013 in the wake of Sandy Hook, I joined with Chuck Grassley, we introduced legislation that was called the Grassley-Cruz legislation. And it was aggressive legislation targeting felons and violent criminals to stop them from getting guns.”

“There were a couple of elements of that legislation that were critical,” he explained. “One, it mandated that federal agencies, including the Air Force, report to the NCIS because that was a problem back then.”

“But two, and this is an even more critical piece,” he added. “If it had been reported to the background database, when he went into academy to buy these weapons, he lied on the forms – that is a felony to lie on those forms.”

“The Obama administration didn’t prosecute those cases,” he continued. “In 2010, 40,000 felons and fugitives lied and illegally tried to purchase guns – they prosecuted only 44 of them.”

“Gun control for felons and fugitives yes, for individual citizens,” Cruz concluded, “for law-abiding citizens, no, and the Democrats filibustered the legislation that would have resulted in this shooter being in federal prison instead of murdering those innocents in that Texas church.”
Yeah, I'ld love a fact check on this. This just sounds like Cruz trying to deflect blame away from very lax gun control laws and incompetent enforcement of them in his home state.

Some quick research shows that Cruz is probably right regarding the benefits of the bill, but it also would have expanded interstate sales and transportation of guns.

Edit: oh never mind.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 10:13:29 PM by More Banners »

Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2017, 02:28:06 AM »

Offline byennie

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The entire gun debate, sad to say, is in the "common sense" vs "lobbyist" zone in this country.

Close the private seller loophole, and hold sellers accountable.

Make the national background check database work. It's not that hard to make sure all felons are on there, for crying out loud.

Fund mental health care.

Keep guns away from domestic abusers.

Realize that the NRA (the organization, not the members) is a group of crooked lobbyists.

Would those things be a perfect system? Of course not, but the first steps aren't complicated. We simply aren't willing to take them, because half the population has been systematically brainwashed by the NRA to believe this is about taking away their freedom.

What do you mean by “hold sellers accountable”?

I mean prosecute sellers that fail to do the required checks. I don't mean hold them liable for the results of a legal sale, of course. If you sell a gun to felon in the national database, it needs to be more than a slap on the wrist.
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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2017, 02:41:51 AM »

Offline jdz101

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A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

That's 750,000 Americans dead over the last 25 years due to guns. If a foreign country or terrorist group did that to America we would be in constant war to stop them. But Americans find those numbers acceptable somehow.

Just a sad indictment on American society, imho.

Yup,

As an australian who lives in a country where extremely strict gun controls have worked, it boggles my mind why more isn't done in the US.

Literally trading people's lives for money.


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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2017, 06:00:22 AM »

Online Roy H.

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The entire gun debate, sad to say, is in the "common sense" vs "lobbyist" zone in this country.

Close the private seller loophole, and hold sellers accountable.

Make the national background check database work. It's not that hard to make sure all felons are on there, for crying out loud.

Fund mental health care.

Keep guns away from domestic abusers.

Realize that the NRA (the organization, not the members) is a group of crooked lobbyists.

Would those things be a perfect system? Of course not, but the first steps aren't complicated. We simply aren't willing to take them, because half the population has been systematically brainwashed by the NRA to believe this is about taking away their freedom.

What do you mean by “hold sellers accountable”?

I mean prosecute sellers that fail to do the required checks. I don't mean hold them liable for the results of a legal sale, of course. If you sell a gun to felon in the national database, it needs to be more than a slap on the wrist.

Gotcha. I absolutely agree. Anybody who knowingly gives a gun to somebody who fails a background check should be prosecuted.


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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 06:51:55 AM »

Offline Androslav

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A small city of 30,000 people die at the hands of firearms every year in the United States. Let that sink in the next time you drive through your local community. If it was your town, every person in that town would be dead at the hands of guns.

That's 750,000 Americans dead over the last 25 years due to guns. If a foreign country or terrorist group did that to America we would be in constant war to stop them. But Americans find those numbers acceptable somehow.

Just a sad indictment on American society, imho.

Yup,

As an australian who lives in a country where extremely strict gun controls have worked, it boggles my mind why more isn't done in the US.

Literally trading people's lives for money.
I couldn't agree more.
The answer lies in the fact that American politicians/guys that pay them, would rather earn money by selling guns and letting people literally kill each other than to govern their country better, more peacefully.
It is not rocket science - determining that more guns mean more offenders, meaning more deaths and gunshot wounds.
Having strict gun laws would be a true act of American patriotism, that we hear so much about and see in every 2nd motion picture.
But it is their industry, their MO, guns made America and bigger guns kept it a world superpower, what are "few" lives.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:58:13 AM by Androslav »
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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2017, 09:27:14 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Until folks really confront the reality that the extreme volume of guns in this country is tightly correlated with our extreme rates of mass shootings, these conversations will tend to go nowhere.

There are solid studies that show high correlation between mass shooting rates and per-capita gun ownership -- even if you exclude the United States!   The U.S. just leaps off the chart in both categories.

Some bizarro numbers that paint a rather interesting picture of "our" sick, extreme obsession with guns:

  • The US currently has about 4.4 percent of the global population, yet owns 42 percent of the world's guns (non-military).    When you poke further, and realize that 32% of Americans own those guns, that means just about 1.4% of the world's population is holding 42% of the world's guns!
  • Even more extreme, consider that the vast majority of gun owners only own one gun.   Just 3% of the US population (or about .13% of the world's population) own half the guns in the U.S., or about 21% of all the guns in the world!
  • In absolute numbers, that means that about 9.7 million Americans own a combined ~133 million guns.
  • For that segment of 'heavy gun ownership' of the population (less than 1 in 30 people), that's an average of over 13 guns per person!
What the heck do those few people need ALL THOSE FREAKING GUNS FOR?????

Are they planning to repel a commie invasion?  Are they planning on forming a "militia" to take on the U.S. military in a coupe?  Preparing for the zombie apocalypse?  What?

This has gotten way past the insane point.

Do you know at least 30 people?  Do you find it a little unnerving to realize that chances are that one of those 30 people might have an arsenal of 13+ guns?  (Obviously, that's not evenly distributed geographically so the chances really vary from state to state).

When will the vast majority of the U.S. that actually _isn't_ obsessed with extreme hoarding of guns finally notice what is going on and stand up and say, "Enough!"?   

Sadly, probably never, given our complete lack of response to Sandy Hook.

It's as if the vast majority, some ~314M Americans ,are held hostage, forced to accommodate the manic obsessions of those few.

They are interesting numbers. And, a lot of those stockpiling weapons are crazies, like the Vegas shooter.

At the same time, I know a lot of “normal” folks who own double digit firearms. They’re almost all police and military, who shoot for recreation and are quasi-collectors.  I personally don’t think they “need” all those weapons, but I also think they’re exceedingly unlikely to ever use those guns in an illegal manner.

I think there should be more sensible gun control, but I also don’t want to punish responsible owners. Here, the system failed, and the only reason this wasn’t worse is because a responsible owner engaged the mass murderer with a firearm of his own.

So, by all means, let’s regulate / ban bump stocks and other devices that modify fire rate, regulate magazine clips, require safety courses, close transfer loopholes, etc. However, in the end it’s likely that nuts and crazies will still end up with a weapon one way or another.

Gun rights advocates frequently (pretty much in every instance of this debate) cite the idea of how, "if only citizen X was armed they could have stopped the shooter!").  This is the argument for arming teachers in schools!!!!   So, of course they are all over this aspect of this event.

The fact is, this is like the only time I've ever heard of such an 'armed good citizen' ever actually being able to engage and stop such a shooter.   Out of how many such mass shooting events?   There is a 'mass shooting event' happening practically every day in this country.   There are millions of gun owners out there.  You'd think more would be playing hero.

And another fact is, while the "armed good citizen" here may have helped end the carnage, his presence and actions did absolutely nothing to prevent it.   Those totally innocent people in the church are still dead.
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