Texas church shooting

[Roy H.]

So far, we know the murderer:

* was discharged from the military for “bad conduct”;

* was sentenced to 12+ months of confinement;

* abused his wife and child;

* was committed to a mental institution which he “escaped” from;

* made threats against his chain of command and attempted to bring weapons onto his base

Yet, this guy passed a background check because of bureaucratic incompetence.

What good are more laws if the ones on the books aren’t enforced? 

[matteo]

exactly!  well said, enforce the laws on the books!  TP

[saltlover]

I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

[byennie]

So far, we know the murderer:

* was discharged from the military for “bad conduct”;

* was sentenced to 12+ months of confinement;

* abused his wife and child;

* was committed to a mental institution which he “escaped” from;

* made threats against his chain of command and attempted to bring weapons onto his base

Yet, this guy passed a background check because of bureaucratic incompetence.

What good are more laws if the ones on the books aren’t enforced?

This is a false choice. The writing of laws and ability to enforce them are tightly linked. For example, the gun show loophole means that even with a perfect background check system, a felon can easily buy a gun for cash from a private seller with no paper trail.

You have to do both, and the enforcement vs new laws argument is a total waste of time.

[MVPPierceNoJoke]

Have the pressed released what time the police showed up at the scene?

[Roy H.]

I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.

[Neurotic Guy]

People are able to have a conversation about how to enforce current laws AND at the same time consider other strategies to reduce the likelihood of gun violence.   This should be a wide open conversation.  Absolutely enforce current laws.   Absolutely have open conversation about addressing gun violence.  I can't imagine why anyone at this point would want to cut off discussion of how we might dually respect law-abiding citizens' right to own guns and open the door to sensible strategies.

What are the sensible strategies?  I don't know enough to know how, but begin with thinking about outcomes:  Reduce gun access to those with risk factors; limit the right to own weapons that are built for mass destruction; limit the right to purchase high-capacity magazines; influence the culture of gun safety; education about risk-factors for violence and what to do about concerns about self or others...   I don't know.... just seems we have to invest some serious thought, have respectful discussion (respecting all sides of the issue including those worried about preserving 2nd amendment rights), select sensible strategies, implement them, and assess their impact.

[chicagoceltic]

I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.

We need to enforce the laws on the books AND take a hard look at adding/changing laws as well.  We clearly have a problem in this country.  There is no one simple, magical solution but there are a number of different things we can try to enact for the safety of our country.  In my opinion the biggest problem is that too many people are so staunchly in either the pro or anti gun camps that they are not willing to even have a sensible conversation.

[saltlover]

I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.

Stronger background checks would help, however.  He was picked up by El Paso police (so Texas) after he escaped from the Air Force’s facility.  El Paso wasn’t required to report that to any database, so they didn’t.  If they had, that would have created another flag so that even the Air Force’s screw up would have had a backup.

And we don’t want to make the databases stronger.  Republicans repealed a rule this year that would have required the Social Security Administration to add anyone incapable of managing their affairs due to mental health reasons to the database.  It wouldn’t have stopped this person (I assume), but undoubtedly there are some.  Rather than adding to what can go in the databases, we limit it, increasing the likelihood people will slip through the cracks.

And we don’t want to try any other preventive measures.  I have to show my license to buy sudafed so the DEA can try to determine if I’m making meth, but how dare we show a license to see who’s stockpiling bullets?  The same type of gun is used in pretty much all the worst shootings — let’s not go there.  60% of the guns used in crimes are sold by 5% of the dealers in the US — we just shrug our shoulders and prevent lawsuits from being filed.  We know it’s easy to get around background checks by going to some gun shows and through straw buyers, but we do nothing.

All I can do is pray that my family never has to experience what these families experience, because providence is the only thing keeping any of us from this until lawmakers actually take action.

[chicagoceltic]

Btw, one of the things I love about this site is that we are able to (for the most part) have insightful conversations about difficult topics like this.  Normally a thread pops up very quickly about a major news event like this.  Unless I missed it this is the first thread about this shooting which happened on Sunday...is that a sign that we have (sadly) become so accustomed to mass shootings that it is no longer something that is a "must discuss" topic here on CB?

[Fan from VT]

I’m sorry, are you arguing that we should not have laws restricting people convicted of domestic abuse from owning guns because databases are imperfect, instead of suggesting that we should figure out how to make the databases better?

Really not sure what you’re getting at.

No, just venting frustration. This is exactly the type of guy we all agree shouldn’t have a gun, and incompetence prevented existing laws from working.

When I see a republican stand up in senate/congress and demand emergency funding to streamline, update, and nationalize some system for background checks to close loopholes and adequately enforce existing laws I will know that this is a legitimate concern and not just an NRA distraction talking point.

[mmmmm]

Until folks really confront the reality that the extreme volume of guns in this country is tightly correlated with our extreme rates of mass shootings, these conversations will tend to go nowhere.

There are solid studies that show high correlation between mass shooting rates and per-capita gun ownership -- even if you exclude the United States!   The U.S. just leaps off the chart in both categories.

Some bizarro numbers that paint a rather interesting picture of "our" sick, extreme obsession with guns:

• The US currently has about 4.4 percent of the global population, yet owns 42 percent of the world's guns (non-military).    When you poke further, and realize that 32% of Americans own those guns, that means just about 1.4% of the world's population is holding 42% of the world's guns!
  
• Even more extreme, consider that the vast majority of gun owners only own one gun.   Just 3% of the US population (or about .13% of the world's population) own half the guns in the U.S., or about 21% of all the guns in the world!
  
• In absolute numbers, that means that about 9.7 million Americans own a combined ~133 million guns.
  
• For that segment of 'heavy gun ownership' of the population (less than 1 in 30 people), that's an average of over 13 guns per person!
  

What the heck do those few people need ALL THOSE FREAKING GUNS FOR??

Are they planning to repel a commie invasion?  Are they planning on forming a "militia" to take on the U.S. military in a coupe?  Preparing for the zombie apocalypse?  What?

This has gotten way past the insane point.

Do you know at least 30 people?  Do you find it a little unnerving to realize that chances are that one of those 30 people might have an arsenal of 13+ guns?  (Obviously, that's not evenly distributed geographically so the chances really vary from state to state).

When will the vast majority of the U.S. that actually _isn't_ obsessed with extreme hoarding of guns finally notice what is going on and stand up and say, "Enough!"?   

Sadly, probably never, given our complete lack of response to Sandy Hook.

It's as if the vast majority, some ~314M Americans ,are held hostage, forced to accommodate the manic obsessions of those few.

[byennie]

The entire gun debate, sad to say, is in the "common sense" vs "lobbyist" zone in this country.

Close the private seller loophole, and hold sellers accountable.

Make the national background check database work. It's not that hard to make sure all felons are on there, for crying out loud.

Fund mental health care.

Keep guns away from domestic abusers.

Realize that the NRA (the organization, not the members) is a group of crooked lobbyists.

Would those things be a perfect system? Of course not, but the first steps aren't complicated. We simply aren't willing to take them, because half the population has been systematically brainwashed by the NRA to believe this is about taking away their freedom.

[Roy H.]

Until folks really confront the reality that the extreme volume of guns in this country is tightly correlated with our extreme rates of mass shootings, these conversations will tend to go nowhere.

There are solid studies that show high correlation between mass shooting rates and per-capita gun ownership -- even if you exclude the United States!   The U.S. just leaps off the chart in both categories.

Some bizarro numbers that paint a rather interesting picture of "our" sick, extreme obsession with guns:

• The US currently has about 4.4 percent of the global population, yet owns 42 percent of the world's guns (non-military).    When you poke further, and realize that 32% of Americans own those guns, that means just about 1.4% of the world's population is holding 42% of the world's guns!
  
• Even more extreme, consider that the vast majority of gun owners only own one gun.   Just 3% of the US population (or about .13% of the world's population) own half the guns in the U.S., or about 21% of all the guns in the world!
  
• In absolute numbers, that means that about 9.7 million Americans own a combined ~133 million guns.
  
• For that segment of 'heavy gun ownership' of the population (less than 1 in 30 people), that's an average of over 13 guns per person!
  

What the heck do those few people need ALL THOSE FREAKING GUNS FOR??

Are they planning to repel a commie invasion?  Are they planning on forming a "militia" to take on the U.S. military in a coupe?  Preparing for the zombie apocalypse?  What?

This has gotten way past the insane point.

Do you know at least 30 people?  Do you find it a little unnerving to realize that chances are that one of those 30 people might have an arsenal of 13+ guns?  (Obviously, that's not evenly distributed geographically so the chances really vary from state to state).

When will the vast majority of the U.S. that actually _isn't_ obsessed with extreme hoarding of guns finally notice what is going on and stand up and say, "Enough!"?   

Sadly, probably never, given our complete lack of response to Sandy Hook.

It's as if the vast majority, some ~314M Americans ,are held hostage, forced to accommodate the manic obsessions of those few.

They are interesting numbers. And, a lot of those stockpiling weapons are crazies, like the Vegas shooter.

At the same time, I know a lot of “normal” folks who own double digit firearms. They’re almost all police and military, who shoot for recreation and are quasi-collectors.  I personally don’t think they “need” all those weapons, but I also think they’re exceedingly unlikely to ever use those guns in an illegal manner.

I think there should be more sensible gun control, but I also don’t want to punish responsible owners. Here, the system failed, and the only reason this wasn’t worse is because a responsible owner engaged the mass murderer with a firearm of his own.

So, by all means, let’s regulate / ban bump stocks and other devices that modify fire rate, regulate magazine clips, require safety courses, close transfer loopholes, etc. However, in the end it’s likely that nuts and crazies will still end up with a weapon one way or another.

[Roy H.]

The entire gun debate, sad to say, is in the "common sense" vs "lobbyist" zone in this country.

Close the private seller loophole, and hold sellers accountable.

Make the national background check database work. It's not that hard to make sure all felons are on there, for crying out loud.

Fund mental health care.

Keep guns away from domestic abusers.

Realize that the NRA (the organization, not the members) is a group of crooked lobbyists.

Would those things be a perfect system? Of course not, but the first steps aren't complicated. We simply aren't willing to take them, because half the population has been systematically brainwashed by the NRA to believe this is about taking away their freedom.

What do you mean by “hold sellers accountable”?