Author Topic: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?  (Read 2932 times)

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Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 03:21:21 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Celts are 1st in point differential, record, and defense.  15th in offense.

I think you've got to rank them at least 2nd based on what they've done through 10 games.

The Warriors are the best offense by a country mile, with the second best point differential.  I think it's fair to rank them first.

Yeah, because everyone knows offense is more important than defense, right??

Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!
In the modern NBA offense is far more important than defense.

The Warriors have the best point differential (donít know why someone earlier said they were #2 in that stat) on top of their best offense, on top of being obviously the best team over the past three years.  First is perfectly reasonable for them.

But when it comes to Boston vs. Houston, the Celtics have the better record, the better point differential (by 4 per 100 possessions), the longer win streak (8 vs. a mere 3).  Itís power rankings, which are silly clickbait designed to get people debating on the internet (well done, ESPN), but at the same time, they theoretically take into account recent performance more heavily.  On top of being the better team over the course of the season (short tho it is), the Celtics are in a different class than the Rockets over the last two weeks. During that period, the Celtics are 7-0 with a +15.9 per 100 possessions.  The Rockets are 5-3 with a +6.4 per 100 ó the Celtics have been 9.5 points better than the Rockets per 100 possessions over the last two weeks.  (Golden State is #1 at 16.7, then Boston, then OKC at 9.2, then Houston).  In fact, over that time, the Celtics actually have as good an offense as Houston ó both at 108.4 per 100.

The debate should be between Warriors and Celtics, and the Rockets should be in their own debate with other teams over #3.  Because thatís the level the Celtics have been playing at the last two weeks ó legitimately approaching Warriors-level dominance over other teams.  That ESPN has the Rockets higher is simply due to their preconceived notion that Houston is a better team.  They may very well ultimately wind up that way, but they have not demonstrated that to date.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.  I would have Boston 2 based on the season.  I was merely commenting on the offense vs. defense question.  Offense is more important in the modern NBA.  That is the point I was making.  Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 03:22:27 PM »

Offline Moranis

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If you look at the defensive and offensive ratings of every NBA champion over the last like 30 years their average rankings were virtually identical.  Just as often the eventual winner was ranked higher defensively than they were offensively.
well sure, but why would you go back 30 years when the game has changed so much in the last 10 or so, and especially the last 5.  The game is no longer one where the best defense is going to win.  It is much more an offensive game now.
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Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 03:23:44 PM »

Online saltlover

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Celts are 1st in point differential, record, and defense.  15th in offense.

I think you've got to rank them at least 2nd based on what they've done through 10 games.

The Warriors are the best offense by a country mile, with the second best point differential.  I think it's fair to rank them first.

Yeah, because everyone knows offense is more important than defense, right??

Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!
In the modern NBA offense is far more important than defense.

The Warriors have the best point differential (donít know why someone earlier said they were #2 in that stat) on top of their best offense, on top of being obviously the best team over the past three years.  First is perfectly reasonable for them.

But when it comes to Boston vs. Houston, the Celtics have the better record, the better point differential (by 4 per 100 possessions), the longer win streak (8 vs. a mere 3).  Itís power rankings, which are silly clickbait designed to get people debating on the internet (well done, ESPN), but at the same time, they theoretically take into account recent performance more heavily.  On top of being the better team over the course of the season (short tho it is), the Celtics are in a different class than the Rockets over the last two weeks. During that period, the Celtics are 7-0 with a +15.9 per 100 possessions.  The Rockets are 5-3 with a +6.4 per 100 ó the Celtics have been 9.5 points better than the Rockets per 100 possessions over the last two weeks.  (Golden State is #1 at 16.7, then Boston, then OKC at 9.2, then Houston).  In fact, over that time, the Celtics actually have as good an offense as Houston ó both at 108.4 per 100.

The debate should be between Warriors and Celtics, and the Rockets should be in their own debate with other teams over #3.  Because thatís the level the Celtics have been playing at the last two weeks ó legitimately approaching Warriors-level dominance over other teams.  That ESPN has the Rockets higher is simply due to their preconceived notion that Houston is a better team.  They may very well ultimately wind up that way, but they have not demonstrated that to date.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.  I would have Boston 2 based on the season.  I was merely commenting on the offense vs. defense question.  Offense is more important in the modern NBA.  That is the point I was making.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Was using it as a redirection point, since the conversation had weirdly steered.  Was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Celts are 1st in point differential, record, and defense.  15th in offense.

I think you've got to rank them at least 2nd based on what they've done through 10 games.

The Warriors are the best offense by a country mile, with the second best point differential.  I think it's fair to rank them first.

Yeah, because everyone knows offense is more important than defense, right??

Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!
In the modern NBA offense is far more important than defense.

Thatís what all the ďexpertsĒ say. The same ones who said we would be regress defensively because we lost Crowder and Avery Bradley.

Kind of a joke.

Celtics are changing the template as we speak, making defense the template for excellence.
That is just nonsense.  If you can't score you won't win in the modern game.  And I'm not talking about winning some regular season games, I'm talking about winning championships.  You have to be able to score and score a lot and score quickly to win titles.  Gone are the days of 89-88 games.  Sure if you are a great offense and have a great defense it is obviously better, but if you could only pick one, you would pick offense every single time and without hesitation.

Stop twisting my words. As a newly appointed moderator I expect better judgment from you Moranis. Did not say we wonít score, just that we are more focused on defense. Unreal.
never said you did and didn't twist your words at all.  frankly your outrage is the only thing shocking here as your unwarranted pot shots. 
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Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 03:40:45 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I prefer the tidbits that Stein brought with his rankings.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 03:55:43 PM »

Offline footey

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Celts are 1st in point differential, record, and defense.  15th in offense.

I think you've got to rank them at least 2nd based on what they've done through 10 games.

The Warriors are the best offense by a country mile, with the second best point differential.  I think it's fair to rank them first.

Yeah, because everyone knows offense is more important than defense, right??

Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!
In the modern NBA offense is far more important than defense.

Thatís what all the ďexpertsĒ say. The same ones who said we would be regress defensively because we lost Crowder and Avery Bradley.

Kind of a joke.

Celtics are changing the template as we speak, making defense the template for excellence.
That is just nonsense.  If you can't score you won't win in the modern game.  And I'm not talking about winning some regular season games, I'm talking about winning championships.  You have to be able to score and score a lot and score quickly to win titles.  Gone are the days of 89-88 games.  Sure if you are a great offense and have a great defense it is obviously better, but if you could only pick one, you would pick offense every single time and without hesitation.

Stop twisting my words. As a newly appointed moderator I expect better judgment from you Moranis. Did not say we wonít score, just that we are more focused on defense. Unreal.
never said you did and didn't twist your words at all.  frankly your outrage is the only thing shocking here as your unwarranted pot shots.

Whatever.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2017, 03:56:55 PM »

Offline liam

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I think the team that has one eight in a row should be #1. No one else has come close to that this season.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 04:07:19 PM »

Offline footey

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Celts are 1st in point differential, record, and defense.  15th in offense.

I think you've got to rank them at least 2nd based on what they've done through 10 games.

The Warriors are the best offense by a country mile, with the second best point differential.  I think it's fair to rank them first.

Yeah, because everyone knows offense is more important than defense, right??

Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!
In the modern NBA offense is far more important than defense.

Thatís what all the ďexpertsĒ say. The same ones who said we would be regress defensively because we lost Crowder and Avery Bradley.

Kind of a joke.

Celtics are changing the template as we speak, making defense the template for excellence.
That is just nonsense.  If you can't score you won't win in the modern game.  And I'm not talking about winning some regular season games, I'm talking about winning championships.  You have to be able to score and score a lot and score quickly to win titles.  Gone are the days of 89-88 games.  Sure if you are a great offense and have a great defense it is obviously better, but if you could only pick one, you would pick offense every single time and without hesitation.

Stop twisting my words. As a newly appointed moderator I expect better judgment from you Moranis. Did not say we wonít score, just that we are more focused on defense. Unreal.
never said you did and didn't twist your words at all.  frankly your outrage is the only thing shocking here as your unwarranted pot shots.

You didn't have to say it. You implied it.  In response to my assessment that the Celtics were in the process of changing the template, to a defensive oriented team that is successful, you responded, in part, as follows:

"That is just nonsense.  If you can't score you won't win in the modern game."

Nowhere did I say that we would ignore scoring. Yet you responded as if I did, in your typical, misleading fashion which is pretty much your MO on this board.   

As for "unwarranted pot shots", not sure what you mean.  Feel free to elaborate here or IM me. 

Thanks.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2017, 04:13:53 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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If you look at the defensive and offensive ratings of every NBA champion over the last like 30 years their average rankings were virtually identical.  Just as often the eventual winner was ranked higher defensively than they were offensively.
well sure, but why would you go back 30 years when the game has changed so much in the last 10 or so, and especially the last 5.  The game is no longer one where the best defense is going to win.  It is much more an offensive game now.
Ask Cleveland how easy it is to win with a top flight offense and no defense.  Boston currently has the best record in the league with the 14th ranked offense and #1 defense.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 04:36:18 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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NBA title winners the last 10 years.

                   Offense rank     defense rank

08 Boston           #10                  #1
09 Lakers             #3                  #5
10 Lakers            #11                 #6
11 Dallas             #8                   #7
12 Miami             #6                   #4   
13 Miami             #1                   #7
14 Spurs             #6                   #4   
15 Warriors         #2                    #1
16 Cavs              #4                    #10
17 Warriors         #1                    #2

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 04:59:28 PM »

Offline footey

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NBA title winners the last 10 years.

                   Offense rank     defense rank

08 Boston           #10                  #1
09 Lakers             #3                  #5
10 Lakers            #11                 #6
11 Dallas             #8                   #7
12 Miami             #6                   #4   
13 Miami             #1                   #7
14 Spurs             #6                   #4   
15 Warriors         #2                    #1
16 Cavs              #4                    #10
17 Warriors         #1                    #2

Thanks. That really solidifies the equal importance of defense and offense to win championships.

Now as much as ever.   

Too many are misled by the incredible offensive juggernaut that is the Warriors, and seem to forget that they are just as impressive defensively. 

TP!!

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2017, 05:09:39 PM »

Online CelticD

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NBA title winners the last 10 years.

                   Offense rank     defense rank

08 Boston           #10                  #1
09 Lakers             #3                  #5
10 Lakers            #11                 #6
11 Dallas             #8                   #7
12 Miami             #6                   #4   
13 Miami             #1                   #7
14 Spurs             #6                   #4   
15 Warriors         #2                    #1
16 Cavs              #4                    #10
17 Warriors         #1                    #2

Average offense: 5.2
Average defense: 4.7

Gotta aim for top 5 in both categories. C's coming up short on the offensive end so far.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 05:17:10 PM »

Offline footey

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NBA title winners the last 10 years.

                   Offense rank     defense rank

08 Boston           #10                  #1
09 Lakers             #3                  #5
10 Lakers            #11                 #6
11 Dallas             #8                   #7
12 Miami             #6                   #4   
13 Miami             #1                   #7
14 Spurs             #6                   #4   
15 Warriors         #2                    #1
16 Cavs              #4                    #10
17 Warriors         #1                    #2

Average offense: 5.2
Average defense: 4.7

Gotta aim for top 5 in both categories. C's coming up short on the offensive end so far.

Good point.

I doubt we will be a top 5 offensive team with this roster. If we added Hayward, I have little doubt that we would be. The loss of Hayward obviously is being felt far more on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive side.


Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 05:22:35 PM »

Offline mctyson

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They shouldn't be any lower than 3 because they are clearly the best team in the East right now.  Can't believe I am saying that but it is true.

Re: ESPN Ranks Celtics 3rd in NBA--Fair?
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2017, 10:17:07 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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A reminder that ESPN is NY-based, and Boston teams are filtered. Remember those highly deflated footballs.

I saw another power ranking on TV that had the Celtics ranked no.1, FWIW. It's too early to make such comparisons.