Carmelo ejected for flagrant 2

[Roy H.]

I don't know if it's a flagrant 2 but it's probably, at least, a flagrant 1. Especially if you watch it from the overheard angle, you can see really clearly that Melo is not jumping toward the basket at all, he's jumping into Nurkic on purpose. That's not uncommon (IT and Harden and many others have made a career of it) but rather than turn his body away from Nurkic, toward the rim (as one would do when one is trying to score) he actually turns his body away from the basket.

To the ref's point, it does look pretty unnatural to me.

That’s a highly common attempt to draw a foul though, not at all an intent to injure. That’s a horrible call. Melo was in the air trying to score, its a basketball play. At most, you call it an offensive foul and move on

He’s trying to finish through contact. It’s hard to say he’s not trying to score when, in fact, he scored. The initial contact was by the defender, which is why Carmelo was given an And-1.

I don't know what to tell you other than to look at the video. He doesn't jump toward the basket, he jumps at Nurkic and he turns away from the rim. It looks to me like his goal was to create contact first and shoot second. Which is exactly what happened.

I know this is a common play, I said that it wasn't uncommon in my post. Just because refs typically give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean they're right to reward offensive players for trying to engineer and-1's by creating contact.

Two things:

1. They gave Carmelo the And-1, so they determined he was fouled in the act of shooting. Thus, a basketball move;

2. No, that’s exactly what the bolder part should mean. If a play is called one way the vast majority of the time, selectively enforcing the rule the other way is wrong. See 4th Quarter, Game 7, 2010 Finals.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

The rule is being enforced differently this year. It doesn’t have to be an intentional act of violence. It just has to be a hit to the head. They are trying to protect players.

Melo did jump towards Nurkici , not the basket, and led with his elbow toward Nurkics face. Nurkic sold it like a soccer player, but according to how they are enforcing it this year, they got it right.

[Big333223]

I don't know if it's a flagrant 2 but it's probably, at least, a flagrant 1. Especially if you watch it from the overheard angle, you can see really clearly that Melo is not jumping toward the basket at all, he's jumping into Nurkic on purpose. That's not uncommon (IT and Harden and many others have made a career of it) but rather than turn his body away from Nurkic, toward the rim (as one would do when one is trying to score) he actually turns his body away from the basket.

To the ref's point, it does look pretty unnatural to me.

That’s a highly common attempt to draw a foul though, not at all an intent to injure. That’s a horrible call. Melo was in the air trying to score, its a basketball play. At most, you call it an offensive foul and move on

He’s trying to finish through contact. It’s hard to say he’s not trying to score when, in fact, he scored. The initial contact was by the defender, which is why Carmelo was given an And-1.

I don't know what to tell you other than to look at the video. He doesn't jump toward the basket, he jumps at Nurkic and he turns away from the rim. It looks to me like his goal was to create contact first and shoot second. Which is exactly what happened.

I know this is a common play, I said that it wasn't uncommon in my post. Just because refs typically give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean they're right to reward offensive players for trying to engineer and-1's by creating contact.

Two things:

1. They gave Carmelo the And-1, so they determined he was fouled in the act of shooting. Thus, a basketball move;

2. No, that’s exactly what the bolder part should mean. If a play is called one way the vast majority of the time, selectively enforcing the rule the other way is wrong. See 4th Quarter, Game 7, 2010 Finals.

1. And then they reviewed the play and reversed the call.

2. I guess I just don't agree that, if a play is called incorrectly a lot, it should continue to be called incorrectly. And even if you think consistency is more important, that doesn't make this not the correct call (at least in terms of it being offensive, whether it's a flagrant 1 or 2, I can't say).

[timpiker]

Since when do fouls have to be intentional?  And he hit another player in the head with his elbow.
Not saying I like the new NBA but the rules are what they are.

[chambers]

Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't ejected for that play. They gave him a second techincal for that play after he already had one, so it's an auto ejection.

It's a flagrant foul because he put another player in danger with his elbows.
But yeah, he would have stayed in the game after that if he didn't already have a tech foul.

[fairweatherfan]

The relevant rule is "When a player seeks out an opponent and throws an elbow which makes any contact above the shoulders, a Flagrant Foul Penalty 2 will be assessed." 

"Seeks out" can be a slippery term and is the closest thing to assessing intent in the flagrant rules but Melo definitely jumped at Nurkic (not unusual), led with his elbow (unusual), and caught him in the head. Pretty much right in line with the rulebook.

People seem upset because it didn't "feel" like a Flagrant 2, either because wanting/thinking an intent to injure needs to be present, or because they believe others have gotten away with similar actions. Either one could be an argument for changing the rulebook, but both are flimsy criticisms of how it was applied.

[playdream]

I don't know if it's a flagrant 2 but it's probably, at least, a flagrant 1. Especially if you watch it from the overheard angle, you can see really clearly that Melo is not jumping toward the basket at all, he's jumping into Nurkic on purpose. That's not uncommon (IT and Harden and many others have made a career of it) but rather than turn his body away from Nurkic, toward the rim (as one would do when one is trying to score) he actually turns his body away from the basket.

To the ref's point, it does look pretty unnatural to me.

That’s a highly common attempt to draw a foul though, not at all an intent to injure. That’s a horrible call. Melo was in the air trying to score, its a basketball play. At most, you call it an offensive foul and move on

He’s trying to finish through contact. It’s hard to say he’s not trying to score when, in fact, he scored. The initial contact was by the defender, which is why Carmelo was given an And-1.

I don't know what to tell you other than to look at the video. He doesn't jump toward the basket, he jumps at Nurkic and he turns away from the rim. It looks to me like his goal was to create contact first and shoot second. Which is exactly what happened.

I know this is a common play, I said that it wasn't uncommon in my post. Just because refs typically give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean they're right to reward offensive players for trying to engineer and-1's by creating contact.

Two things:

1. They gave Carmelo the And-1, so they determined he was fouled in the act of shooting. Thus, a basketball move;

2. No, that’s exactly what the bolder part should mean. If a play is called one way the vast majority of the time, selectively enforcing the rule the other way is wrong. See 4th Quarter, Game 7, 2010 Finals.

1.They gave him an F-2 and ejection, actually
2.If you intentionally hit your elbow to opponent's head it's a F-2, that's the rule, whether you like it or not

[Moranis]

I just don't get why they didn't give Vonleh a flagrant 2 and an ejection for hitting Westbrook across the face a couple of minutes earlier in the same game.  I think that is what is really not sitting well with me or the Thunder on the call.  It is one thing to be inconsistent in a call over many years, it is entirely another to be inconsistent on a call within minutes of each other in the same game.

[Fafnir]

Dirk in his prime would never have finished a game. He used his elbows to attack the head space of every smaller defender they put on him.

Scal for example definitely fouled dirk twice by daring to have his head at elbow height when he played against Dirk.

[hpantazo]

Dirk in his prime would never have finished a game. He used his elbows to attack the head space of every smaller defender they put on him.

Prime Dwight Howard would have been even worse. Basically, the 'rule' is not a rule used much at all until the officials want to eject someone and change the momentum of a game.

[Fafnir]

Dirk in his prime would never have finished a game. He used his elbows to attack the head space of every smaller defender they put on him.

Prime Dwight Howard would have been even worse. Basically, the 'rule' is not a rule used much at all until the officials want to eject someone and change the momentum of a game.

Howard did it on defensive boards so much, and I believe the majority of the injuries were his own teammates though he definitely got opponents too.

[SHAQATTACK]

Melo sucks

Knicks team looks so much better without his lame carcass dragging them down