Poll

Is Kyrie Irving A Legitimate, Bonafide Superstar In The NBA (In Your Books/Definition)?

Yes, Kyrie Irving Is A Legitimate (Bonafide) Superstar In This League
79 (74.5%)
No, I View Kyrie As A Legit All-Star, But A Fringe Superstar At Best Currently
27 (25.5%)

Total Members Voted: 106

Author Topic: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?  (Read 13109 times)

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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2017, 06:20:04 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2017, 06:29:16 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2017, 09:05:42 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2017, 09:17:51 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Oh wait nvm, I'm an idiot I kept misreading that.

I'd probably lean on the Top-10 player. He can carry you throughout a whole game (including the finishing moments).
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2017, 09:19:26 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 09:56:29 PM by A Future of Stevens »
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2017, 09:22:33 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.

Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2017, 10:39:00 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.

Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.

Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?

It's the handcheck rule changes.

Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.

After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).

Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.

What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.

Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.

It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.

Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.

/end thread

I mean Curry just signed a 200M deal and Klay+Draymond are due for contracts.

Warriors may run into cap issues in 2 years unless they are happy with paying a massive luxury tax.

That's kind of the reality of the NBA now. Hard to truly sustain contenders for a very long time due to cap space.

Spurs you could say are exception to that with coach Pop, and hopefully we are too with Brad Stevens!
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2017, 10:41:48 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.

Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.

Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?

It's the handcheck rule changes.

....

Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.


I concur with much of your post except for the highlighted conclusion.

The change in the rules has not so much made having an elite, scoring guard (or attacking wing like Harden) replaceable so much as it has made having such a player a necessity.   To keep up in scoring now, you kind of have to have such a player.

The changes have also made perimeter guard defense far less important than it was before (because the rules make stopping such attackers at the perimeter kind of futile) while increasing the importance of defense in bigs and wings (to deal with the inevitable penetration).
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2017, 02:14:32 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.

Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.

Thanks guys. I would like to think these were some of the Pros and Cons  that were considered when we created our package for Irving.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2017, 03:25:20 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.

Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.

Thanks guys. I would like to think these were some of the Pros and Cons  that were considered when we created our package for Irving.

The package they gave up was too much but I'm guessing they thought IT's injury would really affect him the rest of his career.

But if IT returns and plays like he did last year... then yeah it's going to look like Ainge over-payed big time.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2017, 04:01:10 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Top 3 Guard
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Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.

What’s the “top 3” designation come from?

http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*20

Kyrie’s clutch shooting was terrible last year.


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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2017, 11:02:31 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status

Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.

Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.

Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or  a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?

Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)

Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24? 

The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.

It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.

What’s the “top 3” designation come from?

http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*20

Kyrie’s clutch shooting was terrible last year.

Just saw this, but dang Isaiah was 2nd on this last.

But then Jerryd Bayless and Cheick Diallo are Top-6 on this too  :laugh:
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2017, 11:06:07 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Games like tonight really make you think...

Isaiah had these kinds of performances last year too at times, but Kyrie's performances just have a different vibe to them somehow... (might also be his defense being REALLY good)
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2017, 11:09:05 PM »

Offline azzenfrost

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He should be in the MVP conversation.
I moved the cheese.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2017, 11:10:49 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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um, a godsend?