Poll

Is Kyrie Irving A Legitimate, Bonafide Superstar In The NBA (In Your Books/Definition)?

Yes, Kyrie Irving Is A Legitimate (Bonafide) Superstar In This League
49 (64.5%)
No, I View Kyrie As A Legit All-Star, But A Fringe Superstar At Best Currently
27 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Author Topic: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?  (Read 3536 times)

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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2017, 11:48:03 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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If Kyrie keeps playing defense like this, he is easily a top 3 PG behind Steph and Westbrook.

If his defense falls back to the norm for his historical performance, he is back in that Lillard-Walker-IT realm of top 5-7 PG where they are all on similar levels.

I don't know if the former makes him a superstar, but he would be a really great player to have in either scenario.

Where is Harden in that hypothetical? Number 4? I think right now he's easily Top-3 in NBA.


Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2017, 12:10:58 AM »

Offline CelticSooner

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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2017, 02:44:38 AM »

Offline Casperian

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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.

Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.

Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?

It's the handcheck rule changes.

Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.

After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).

Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.

What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.

Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.

It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.

Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.

/end thread
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2017, 03:09:52 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.

Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.

Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?

It's the handcheck rule changes.

Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.

After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).

Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.

What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.

Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.

It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.

Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.

/end thread
I actually agree with your points, but Kyrie is making the old max (less than 20% of the cap rn) and he scored 32 tonight lol (not to say he'll keep this up but he's still a ~24 PPG guy rn and is leading his team to impressive wins). He's probably a top 3 PG rn with Stevens guiding him and although the trade looked bad at first, it's looking better now and I think this is pretty sustainable. I'd say this trade looks fine rn and with Brooklyn looking feisty we may have very well traded a late lottery pick, an injured star rental and a disgruntled role player with a risky prospect for a still young albeit mercurial star. I think if this happened it would be worth the upgrade.
Btw what are you hoping for this season? I enjoy your views a lot and it would be fun to hear more about your hopes rather than your dissatisfactions about the team lol.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2017, 08:06:38 AM »

Offline Green-18

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If Kyrie keeps playing defense like this, he is easily a top 3 PG behind Steph and Westbrook.

If his defense falls back to the norm for his historical performance, he is back in that Lillard-Walker-IT realm of top 5-7 PG where they are all on similar levels.

I don't know if the former makes him a superstar, but he would be a really great player to have in either scenario.

Where is Harden in that hypothetical? Number 4? I think right now he's easily Top-3 in NBA.

If we classify Harden as a PG then he is in the top 3 even though I hate to admit it.  Harden is amazing to watch but his lack of heart and desire in big games is alarming.  We all know things get difficult in the playoffs but Harden has yet to show that he can elevate his game against elite competition.  That aside, his talent, skills, and stats certainly put him up there as an elite player regardless of position. 

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2017, 08:24:37 AM »

Offline The One

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As a problem...that other teams can't solve... ;D  ;D  ;D

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2017, 12:47:00 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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As a problem...that other teams can't solve... ;D  ;D  ;D

LOL.

You check out the Hawks Twitter feed yesterday when they posted the final score?  :laugh:

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2017, 10:02:40 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.

Yeah that's how I view it.

Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.

So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2017, 03:24:54 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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I have Kyrie in my Top-20 (barely), so I view him as legitimate star, but not superstar.

He's a superstar scorer though, like Isaiah Thomas was last year, if that makes sense.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2017, 08:56:52 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status

Wow, Top 10?

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2017, 09:01:59 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.

Yeah that's how I view it.

Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.

So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.
Hard to call a top 5 MVP vote getter not considered a superstar
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2017, 09:03:39 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.

Yeah that's how I view it.

Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.

So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.
Hard to call a top 5 MVP vote getter not considered a superstar

I think he should be, but I'm saying most on here and most of the fan base in general don't seem to think so.  :P

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2017, 10:31:05 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.

Eh idk.. I don't view Hayward as a superstar but a legit all-star, and think Irving > Hayward (by small margin).

But yeah agree on the second part ("maybe a superstar-caliber player but not transcendent")

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2017, 06:05:59 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status

Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2017, 06:14:56 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status

Wow, Top 10?

There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??

He's arguably not even the best player on his team.  In no world does he crack the top 10.
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