Poll

Is Kyrie Irving A Legitimate, Bonafide Superstar In The NBA (In Your Books/Definition)?

Yes, Kyrie Irving Is A Legitimate (Bonafide) Superstar In This League
49 (64.5%)
No, I View Kyrie As A Legit All-Star, But A Fringe Superstar At Best Currently
27 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Author Topic: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?  (Read 3533 times)

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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2017, 10:42:44 PM »

Offline spikelovetheCelts

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I think a super star is top 3 nba teams 3 times. KI is close to getting there. But he is our superstar and that he is good enough to me. First in th east is all I care and he has put us there.
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2017, 10:42:46 PM »

Offline Forza Juventus

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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.

Yep, and so is Cousins, Giannis and KAT.
Yup.
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2017, 10:45:57 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.

Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.

Fair enough, I missed "starters."  I enjoy watching the Celtics.  Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far.  Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa.  There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years.  I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 10:48:57 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.

Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.

Fair enough, I missed "starters."  I enjoy watching the Celtics.  Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far.  Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa.  There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years.  I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.

It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.

Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2017, 11:07:58 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.

Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.

Fair enough, I missed "starters."  I enjoy watching the Celtics.  Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far.  Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa.  There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years.  I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.

It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.

Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.

Very strange.  I can't think of a single precedent for the trade, honestly.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2017, 11:11:07 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.

Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.

Fair enough, I missed "starters."  I enjoy watching the Celtics.  Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far.  Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa.  There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years.  I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.

It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.

Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.

Very strange.  I can't think of a single precedent for the trade, honestly.

Like can you imagine if Warriors and Spurs made a trade with each other involving star players.

That's how unexpected (and strange) this whole trade was.

It's funny b/c all summer we heard Porzingis, George, Butler, etc. as trade rumors and were hoping a trade was made.

Then Irving's on the block and we're like "nah we have Isaiah, so not worth trading for Kyrie" and then out of the blue we get Kyrie of all the trade targets/rumored targets  :laugh:  :P

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 04:50:48 AM »

Offline Greyman

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This is the sort of bar room debate that can take up three hours and provide no conclusion. Mainly because we all apply our own criteria. Some are stats based or achievement based while others look more at how loved they are by their fans. And even in the domain of 'superstars' there seems to be tiers. LBJ, Jordan, Bird and Johnson are members of a tier of players in the top 5 of all time debate. Personally I am happy, for now, for Jordan to be considered number 1 (another debate). Players at this level all have high scores in every criteria you can apply.

To Kyrie. In the criteria of media attention and impact on his franchise, he is a superstar imo. Though here in Australia so is Ben Simmons based on this criteria. Stats wise I go along with others who point out that many players produce similar numbers, elite as they are. This is the first season I have watched KI so closely. I see another superstar criteria he is outstanding in. He sees the court in a way very few players do. He has a ball handle that is crazy good and he can use these skills to change the course of a game. His BBIQ is way above average. These things alone don't make him a superstar for me yet, if they convert into leading this team to titles then I think he is.

He has a title and many other accolades, tier 2 or 3 superstar for me right now.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 06:53:58 AM »

Offline Granath

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The Jury is still out.

I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book

But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.

From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2017, 07:40:12 AM »

Online Androslav

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The Jury is still out.

I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book

But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.

From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
I like to read your posts Granath, but you lost some cred there. That list is no more than a dead season tool to create unexisting contraversy, and not to draw conclusions from it.

You said that a SS is a guy who is carring a team.
In our 1st 9 games I saw a guy who takes over late in games, when the oppoents are best prepared and know he will attack agressively. I dont think he must do it for 48 mins to be a SS. He just has to show up when we need him the most.

I think this is the year where most fans stop that convo. Since it is going to get even more conviencing, with him closing a game after a game.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2017, 08:04:37 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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For whatever reason he is woefully underrated now.

He is intentionally playing within the system and making the right plays so far this season. This makes the team better, but his stats are not inflated.

He is still a guy who is averaging 22 and 6 a game, leading the league in steals, with a 96 defensive rating and a 6.7 box score plus/minus (10th in the NBA) ... on the best team in the NBA.

On the list of unstoppable offensive players, Irving is top 5.

On the list of oh-crap-he-just-made-two-in-a-row players, Irving is top 3.

The league is terrified that Irving is figuring out how to read defenses to get the best shots for his team, because that means he is going to use all of his dribbling tricks to manipulate those defenses to get great shots for his team.

Opposing offensive players are never safe when they have the ball around Irving, as the league leader in steals and top 10 in deflections.

If Irving isn't a superstar, then no one is.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2017, 08:29:54 AM »

Offline footey

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The media will anoint him a superstar when he leads us to our next championship. Until then he will be classified a very good all star.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2017, 08:48:06 AM »

Offline timpiker

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Clearly at the top of the best.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2017, 09:43:03 AM »

Offline Granath

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The Jury is still out.

I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book

But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.

From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
I like to read your posts Granath, but you lost some cred there. That list is no more than a dead season tool to create unexisting contraversy, and not to draw conclusions from it.

You said that a SS is a guy who is carring a team.
In our 1st 9 games I saw a guy who takes over late in games, when the oppoents are best prepared and know he will attack agressively. I dont think he must do it for 48 mins to be a SS. He just has to show up when we need him the most.

I think this is the year where most fans stop that convo. Since it is going to get even more conviencing, with him closing a game after a game.

I didn't mention one list. I mentioned three and I could have mentioned ten. They all say pretty much the same thing, which is KI isn't a top 3 PG in this league and is often rated the 5th-8th PG in the NBA. Is a superstar the 5th or 6th best guy at his position? I don't think so. If someone believes that there are 20 or 25 superstars in the NBA then KI is going to be among that bunch. If someone (like me) believes that there are only 5-10 superstars in this league then KI has a long way to go to get in that group.

As for 4th quarter heroics, IT did the same thing far better than KI last year. Kyrie is 14th in 4th quarter scoring, shooting a meh 44% from the field and 31% from 3. 14th is nice but that's not anywhere near IT last year (and no, he's not making any more assists than IT did last year either). He's taken over the same role that IT had last year and not doing it as well...and somehow this makes him a superstar?

Now maybe as he gets more comfortable he'll blossom. If he continues to show something on defense then he'll get more consideration. If he increases his assists (5.7 doesn't cut it) and maintains his scoring he'll get more consideration. If he scores more than he'll get more consideration. But not right now. Because if Kemba Walker is a better scorer, shooter, distributor and defender - and 9 games in that's all true - and I don't consider him to be a superstar, where does that leave Irving?

If Irving played for 29 other teams we would not be having this discussion.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:48:23 AM by Granath »
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2017, 11:27:36 AM »

Offline billysan

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For me the superstar criteria includes,

Multiple all star teams as a starter, not just one or two selections.
Multiple MVP finalist considerations.
Multiple all NBA selections,  including defensive.

To a lesser degree, lead your team to the conference finals multiple times and ROY selection finalist.

I want to see a sustained body of work over several years. I think Kyrie has already earned the superstar label and this year if we make it to the ECF he will  convert many of his critics. Not many players can come to a new team and led them deep into the playoffs even with significant injuries to key players. He may well do that this year.

The problem for Kyrie  is how many great PG's are in the league now.  He is being measured against Curry, Westbrook,  Wall, Harden, Paul and Lillard. Pretty impressive list but if he outperforms them, then he earns even more respect  IMHO.
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2017, 12:18:15 PM »

Offline Mean Gerald Green

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For whatever reason he is woefully underrated now.

He is intentionally playing within the system and making the right plays so far this season. This makes the team better, but his stats are not inflated.

He is still a guy who is averaging 22 and 6 a game, leading the league in steals, with a 96 defensive rating and a 6.7 box score plus/minus (10th in the NBA) ... on the best team in the NBA.

On the list of unstoppable offensive players, Irving is top 5.

On the list of oh-crap-he-just-made-two-in-a-row players, Irving is top 3.

The league is terrified that Irving is figuring out how to read defenses to get the best shots for his team, because that means he is going to use all of his dribbling tricks to manipulate those defenses to get great shots for his team.

Opposing offensive players are never safe when they have the ball around Irving, as the league leader in steals and top 10 in deflections.

If Irving isn't a superstar, then no one is.

Well said, couldn't agree more.