Poll

Is Kyrie Irving A Legitimate, Bonafide Superstar In The NBA (In Your Books/Definition)?

Yes, Kyrie Irving Is A Legitimate (Bonafide) Superstar In This League
49 (64.5%)
No, I View Kyrie As A Legit All-Star, But A Fringe Superstar At Best Currently
27 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Author Topic: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?  (Read 3534 times)

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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2017, 09:27:42 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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Kyrie is a star not a superstar.  A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.

Agreed.  For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars.  At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star".   But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.

So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4 NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.

Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap.  You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving.  So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me.  But that is objective as one can get.

As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation.  He has a lot to prove yet in Boston.  Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc. 
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2017, 09:30:18 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Kyrie was on the floor last night against the reigning mvp and a couple of former all-nba forwards, and was the best player on the floor.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2017, 09:31:35 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Kyrie is a star not a superstar.  A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.

Agreed.  For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars.  At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star".   But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.

So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4 NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.

Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap.  You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving.  So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me.  But that is objective as one can get.

As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation.  He has a lot to prove yet in Boston.  Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc.

Yes, listing his accolades is a personal attack on you. Absolutely.
Thank you, Isaiah!!!

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2017, 09:32:29 PM »

Offline jambr380

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2017, 09:35:08 PM »

Offline eja117

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Be the best player on a ring or win at least one MVP or make All NBA first team twice in a row and we can talk about superstar. Not before.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2017, 09:48:43 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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Kyrie is a star not a superstar.  A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.

Agreed.  For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars.  At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star".   But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.

So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4 NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.

Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap.  You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving.  So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me.  But that is objective as one can get.

As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation.  He has a lot to prove yet in Boston.  Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc.

Yes, listing his accolades is a personal attack on you. Absolutely.

Clear misinterpretation of what I said.  Again, I am fine labeling ~30 players as "superstars" because it wouldn't affect how I put my pants on in the AM, and I subjectively like a lot of those players.  Your listing his accolades was secondary to your original claim that I'm basing my player ranking on how I feel about them off the court.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2017, 09:50:02 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly. 
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2017, 10:00:21 PM »

Offline Forza Juventus

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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.
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Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2017, 10:00:57 PM »

Offline Green-18

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

If the term "Superstar" is restricted to players that can carry a team to greatness on their own then LeBron is the only one IMO.  This may sound crazy but LeBron can accomplish more without help than any other player and it's not even close.  Durant, Kawhi, and Steph couldn't carry a team without a great system and/or talent surrounding them.  My definition of carrying a team would be a 1-2 seed every season and multiple round playoff run regardless of circumstance.  LeBron isn't the greatest closer against the best teams but he can beat up on the rest of the league better than any player ever has.

As for Kyrie, his past two Finals have been outstanding.  I don't think there are too many players that would have complimented LeBron as well as Kyrie.  The list isn't small but it certainly isn't 30 deep. 

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2017, 10:02:40 PM »

Offline RJ87

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

Okay... like who?

He was an All-Star before Lebron went back to Cleveland. He was Rookie of the Year before Lebron went back to Cleveland. His international team success came after Lebron retired from international play.

Just as you accuse me of trying to legitimatize his status as a superstar because "I'm a fan of his commercials/post-game attire" and off the court persona (which, frankly, I've work around athletes long enough to know that all of these guys' off the court personas are crafted by managers, publicists, and agents and shouldn't be accepted as real indications of their day to day lives), I wonder if you're trying a little too hard to attribute his success to Lebron because you don't like him.
Thank you, Isaiah!!!

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 10:07:35 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Well, yep as I expected this is a pretty big debate  :P

FWIW I think Kyrie is an all star and fringe superstar (not bonafide superstar), but my friend disagrees.

I see 10 superstars in this league but Kyrie isn't one of them in my books.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2017, 10:08:07 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I think he is. Here are some of the boxes I think a superstar should check off. He gets most of them

1. Top 20 player for at least 3 years. Yes
2. Top 10 MVP candidate at least 1x. No
3. Has won accolades or Championships. Yes
4. Is a elite scorer. Yes
5. Is a leader for a team. Yes
6. Is dominant winning his match up most nights. Yes
7. Elevates his team's play. Yes
8. Clutch. Yes
9. Guy you buy tickets to watch in person. Yes
10. Known by even casual NBA fans. Yes
11. Media hyped player. Yes
12. A guy a team is satisfied just to "contain". Yes
13. Has his own merchandise or tons of sponsers. Yes
14. Holds/Held a few records. Minor
15.  Has legend/epic performances. Yes
My Top 5
Trade targets.      Draft.                     FAs
1. Davis              1.Fultz              1. Griffin*
2. Cousins          2. Tatum          2. Hayward
3. Butler              3. Jackson       3. Millsap
4. George            4. Ball               4. Lowry
5. Favors             5. Isaac            5. Gali

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 10:31:58 PM »

Offline jambr380

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.

Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2017, 10:41:39 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.

Yep, and so is Cousins, Giannis and maybe even KAT.

Re: Debating With Friend: What Do You View Kyrie Irving As In The NBA?
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2017, 10:41:54 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.

So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.

Okay... like who?

He was an All-Star before Lebron went back to Cleveland. He was Rookie of the Year before Lebron went back to Cleveland. His international team success came after Lebron retired from international play.

I think it's easier to question which all-stars would not.  Would the majority of all the all-star selections during their time together in CLE not have had similar success?

He was an all-star before LeBron, and ROY, on a terrible team.  He also hasn't shown any improvement since.  As for his Olympic play... he averaged 11 ppg in 2016. 
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird