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Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?

Yes
3 (3.7%)
No
77 (93.9%)
Maybe So
2 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 82

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Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2017, 06:54:17 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Please, I'm all ears.  Love it when people go throwing the "winner" label on to guys who have consistently failed to win anything in their entire professional careers.



Al Horford, 4 time All-Star, who has 71.3 career Win Shares (652 games) in the regular season and 8 career Win Shares in the playoffs (92 games), has "failed to win anything in [his] entire professional career."

Uh yeah.  OK.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2017, 07:02:29 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Please, I'm all ears.  Love it when people go throwing the "winner" label on to guys who have consistently failed to win anything in their entire professional careers.



Al Horford, 4 time All-Star, who has 71.3 career Win Shares (652 games) in the regular season and 8 career Win Shares in the playoffs (92 games), has "failed to win anything in [his] entire professional career."

Uh yeah.  OK.
Did pretty well in college too
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Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2017, 07:08:34 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Disagree with the premise that the only way you can be a winner is to win a championship. Was Big Baby a winner? Is Tony Allen? Was Gary Payton only a winner because he came off the bench with Miami?

Consistently winning in the regular season and playoffs after winning a national championship in college and leading all those teams, is being a winner in my mind.

I just don't subscribe to the definition of a winner only being a champion.

And if you read what I've said rather than just assumed, you would see that I never defined being a winner as just somebody who has won championships.

But I do consider it to be somebody who has been known for giving his teams a fighting chance.

Kevin Garnett has been a core piece on at least 3 or 4 ECF teams - likewise Pierce.  Likewise guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade.  Those guys haven't always won, but there have been multiple occasions where they've put they have taken their teams deep in to the playoffs.

Horford has played on quality teams his entire career and has consistently struggled to get past the first and second rounds...and there's strong room for debate about whether he was even the best player on any of those teams. 

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2017, 07:11:10 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2017, 07:21:17 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.
I think those people are idiots too.

I think your definition of winner is dumb.

I think Marcus Smart is a winner, but by your definition he isnt even remotely close. I think your definition of "winner" is a lot closer to what most people would call "superstar".

As for the KG example, Al Horford had made more conference finals by his 31st birthday than KG did despite playing fewer seasons due to coming into the league older and suffering more injuries.
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Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2017, 07:36:08 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.

Carmelo has made the playoffs 10 times and not since 2013. He's lost in the first round 8 of those times.

Big Al has made the playoffs every season he's been in the league and has only lost in the first round 3 times.

Best player Al played with in playoffs was Joe Johnson? Paul Millsap?
Carmelo has taken a few trash teams to the playoffs but he also had Billups, AI and Kidd during his 2 deep playoff runs.

Maybe I'm cherry picking my stats.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2017, 07:41:42 PM »

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Disagree with the premise that the only way you can be a winner is to win a championship. Was Big Baby a winner? Is Tony Allen? Was Gary Payton only a winner because he came off the bench with Miami?

Consistently winning in the regular season and playoffs after winning a national championship in college and leading all those teams, is being a winner in my mind.

I just don't subscribe to the definition of a winner only being a champion.

And if you read what I've said rather than just assumed, you would see that I never defined being a winner as just somebody who has won championships.

But I do consider it to be somebody who has been known for giving his teams a fighting chance.

Kevin Garnett has been a core piece on at least 3 or 4 ECF teams - likewise Pierce.  Likewise guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade.  Those guys haven't always won, but there have been multiple occasions where they've put they have taken their teams deep in to the playoffs.

Horford has played on quality teams his entire career and has consistently struggled to get past the first and second rounds...and there's strong room for debate about whether he was even the best player on any of those teams.
As you see I didn't quote you. I was just giving my thoughts on what a winner is. So don't assume I didn't read what you said or was even talking to you.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2017, 07:44:33 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Yep... here we are with Cbloggers debating about Al Horford being "a winner or not"  ::) ::)

You know what guys, you're right. WHAT A LOSER! Trade Horford, Brad Stevens, and everyone on this team besides Irving and Baynes (who have won championships)  ::)

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2017, 07:52:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.
I think those people are idiots too.

I think your definition of winner is dumb.

I think Marcus Smart is a winner, but by your definition he isnt even remotely close. I think your definition of "winner" is a lot closer to what most people would call "superstar".

As for the KG example, Al Horford had made more conference finals by his 31st birthday than KG did despite playing fewer seasons due to coming into the league older and suffering more injuries.

Al Horford has played in 11 NBA seasons.

Over those NBA seasons he had played alongside 4 different all Stars (Joe Johnson, Paul Millsap, Kyle Korver, Isaiah Thomas) and another 3 borderline All-stars (Josh Smith, Jeff Teague, Mike Bibby).

Yet  despite playing with a not-insubstantial amount of talent around him, here is his career playoff record:

07-08: lost in 1st round
08-09: lost in 2nd round
09-10: lost in 2nd round
10-11: lost in 2nd round
11-12: lost in 2nd round
12-13: lost in 1st round
13-14: lost in 1st round
14-15: lost In ECF
15-16: lost in 2nd round
16-17: lost in ECF

Do you know how many seasons horford had played without an all star teammate? Zero.  That's right, every single season has been in the league he has had at least one all star teammate. Yet his record is as follows :

Zero NBA finals appearances
2 ECF appearances
3 first round exits
5 second round exits

If you want to consider that the history of a 'winner" then sorry, but I have to disagree.


Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2017, 07:54:33 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.

Carmelo has made the playoffs 10 times and not since 2013. He's lost in the first round 8 of those times.

Big Al has made the playoffs every season he's been in the league and has only lost in the first round 3 times.

Best player Al played with in playoffs was Joe Johnson? Paul Millsap?
Carmelo has taken a few trash teams to the playoffs but he also had Billups, AI and Kidd during his 2 deep playoff runs.

Maybe I'm cherry picking my stats.

And Billups, AI and Kidd were all cooked by the time they played with Melo, while Horford played with multiple all stars while they were in their primes...

Put horford on Melos Knicks teams and let's see if he makes the playoff every year then...

Horford has been the secobd or third best player on every team he's played on, yet has struggled his entire career to get past the second round. 

But anyway I want to clarify that just because I'm saying horford isn't a winner, doesn't mean I'm calling him a loser.  I just think he's a solid guy who gets the job done, simply put.

Coming 5th every year doesn't make you a winner, but it doesn't make you a loser either.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:04:06 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2017, 07:59:05 PM »

Offline G-Bones

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Yep... here we are with Cbloggers debating about Al Horford being "a winner or not"  ::) ::)

You know what guys, you're right. WHAT A LOSER! Trade Horford, Brad Stevens, and everyone on this team besides Irving and Baynes (who have won championships)  ::)

Right on, Phantom.  If some consider Al is not a winner, are they saying he is a loser.  "I'm all ears", please explain to me how one would consider Al a loser.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2017, 08:00:25 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Hope the OP is watching this game
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It's not rational, but sports fandom isn't supposed to be.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2017, 08:12:20 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Lol

I love the black and white mentality of people here.

Is like somebody has to be either first or last and there's nothing in between.

As soon as you suggest a guy isn't worthy of being labeled a winner, it's immediately assumed you have some vendetta against the guy out you're a hater.

You realise that it IS possible to think a player is good, respect a player, and appreciate a player without showering them with titles they haven't yet earned.

As one said all along, horford is a very good player, but he's done nothing to earn this "winner" reputation, is all.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2017, 08:17:07 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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Funny, people consider Melo a loser, yet he's made more all star teams and has taken a team just as far as horford has, while also having a great deal of success at the college level.

How are they different?

And unlike horford Melo has been the undisputed best player in every team he's ever been on.  But Melo cops flak for not carrying his teams deep while horford gets labeled a winner for it.

Carmelo has made the playoffs 10 times and not since 2013. He's lost in the first round 8 of those times.

Big Al has made the playoffs every season he's been in the league and has only lost in the first round 3 times.

Best player Al played with in playoffs was Joe Johnson? Paul Millsap?
Carmelo has taken a few trash teams to the playoffs but he also had Billups, AI and Kidd during his 2 deep playoff runs.

Maybe I'm cherry picking my stats.

And Billups, AI and Kidd were all cooked by the time they played with Melo, while Horford played with multiple all stars while they were in their primes...

Put horford on Melos Knicks teams and let's see if he makes the playoff every year then...

Horford has been the secobd or third best player on every team he's played on, yet has struggled his entire career to get past the second round. 

But anyway I want to clarify that just because I'm saying horford isn't a winner, doesn't mean I'm calling him a loser.  I just think he's a solid guy who gets the job done, simply put.

Coming 5th every year doesn't make you a winner, but it doesn't make you a loser either.

I certainly didn't accuse you of calling AL a loser just pointed out some facts.

Re: Al Horford: Is now a good time to sell high?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2017, 08:18:09 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Lol

I love the black and white mentality of people here.

Is like somebody has to be either first or last and there's nothing in between.

As soon as you suggest a guy isn't worthy of being labeled a winner, it's immediately assumed you have some vendetta against the guy out you're a hater.

You realise that it IS possible to think a player is good, respect a player, and appreciate a player without showering them with titles they haven't yet earned.

As one said all along, horford is a very good player, but he's done nothing to earn this "winner" reputation, is all.
What are you even talking about???

He literally is a winner. He wins WAY more than he loses, and has made multiple deep playoff runs.

Just because he doesn't fit your obscure definition of what a winner is lol
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It's not rational, but sports fandom isn't supposed to be.