Kyrie's defense (merged threads)

[DefenseWinsChamps]

If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Draymond is so overrated in that some actually consider him a Top-15 player in the league.

HUH??? 

Great player and great piece on a championship team, but Top-15?? (Implying fringe superstar)

Yeah, that's a situation that is subjective, not objective. I think people are talking about apples and oranges.

Is he a top 15 talent? No. On a team that depended on him to score more, or to create more shots, he would post some of the worst shooting percentages in the league. 

Does he have a top 15 impact in his role? Yes. He is perfectly suited to be the pick-man for Curry, Durant, and Thompson. He can role and take advantage of shifting defenses. He can also spend the majority of his energy on the defensive end.

Fair enough, and you raise good points.

And yeah I'm referring more to a talent standpoint, like folks out there (like for example, Kellerman) say Draymond is a Top-15 player in the entire league and that he'd have similar impacts on other teams too.

Frankly I think he fits GSW system so well and is complemented well (but honestly he's considered the 4th best player on that loaded team unless you think he's better than Klay.)

Yeah. But that's what great coaches do. They find a role that a player can succeed in, and unleash him in that. Some coaches luck into perfect roster constructions, but the best coaches develop the talent together.

It's what makes CBS so special. He carved out an impact shot-creating role for Jordan Crawford, who immediately was out of the league after he left the Celtics. He carved out the same bench role for Evan Turner, which earned him 80 million dollars. He developed Sullinger in an impact big (albeit inefficient), and he is now out of the league. He carved an MVP type role for Thomas.

CBS has done it again and again, which is why, I think, as long as he is our coach, we will never have a depth problem. He can take any foreigner or 2nd rounder and turn them into a serviceable player in our rotation.

Also, this is why Al Horford is so special, too. Just like Green, Horford knows how to have a great impact in a specific role, and he doesn't try to do too much.

Incidentally, this is why I've always had high hopes for Marcus Smart. I've always wondered, if he could find his role, if he could be a guard version of Green. The problem is that he has a poor feel for the game and his teammates. He consistently tries to do too much, instead of playing and impacting the game within his role.

Anyway, back to Irving. Instead of being asked to score (like on the Cavs), now Irving's role is to build the confidence of his teammates (noticeable connection with Horford and Brown), score in his spots, and set the tone on defense.

Irving's early season has shown me that, when he is locked in, he has some of the fastest hands and best anticipation of anyone in the NBA. I love the effort on most possessions. CBS doesn't ask him to guard the best guard (for the most part), but in his role, Irving is wreaking havoc off-ball and in short stints on ball. He gets tons of deflections and steals. He contests most shots really well.

[Phantom255x]

If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Draymond is so overrated in that some actually consider him a Top-15 player in the league.

HUH??? 

Great player and great piece on a championship team, but Top-15?? (Implying fringe superstar)

Yeah, that's a situation that is subjective, not objective. I think people are talking about apples and oranges.

Is he a top 15 talent? No. On a team that depended on him to score more, or to create more shots, he would post some of the worst shooting percentages in the league. 

Does he have a top 15 impact in his role? Yes. He is perfectly suited to be the pick-man for Curry, Durant, and Thompson. He can role and take advantage of shifting defenses. He can also spend the majority of his energy on the defensive end.

Fair enough, and you raise good points.

And yeah I'm referring more to a talent standpoint, like folks out there (like for example, Kellerman) say Draymond is a Top-15 player in the entire league and that he'd have similar impacts on other teams too.

Frankly I think he fits GSW system so well and is complemented well (but honestly he's considered the 4th best player on that loaded team unless you think he's better than Klay.)

Yeah. But that's what great coaches do. They find a role that a player can succeed in, and unleash him in that. Some coaches luck into perfect roster constructions, but the best coaches develop the talent together.

It's what makes CBS so special. He carved out an impact shot-creating role for Jordan Crawford, who immediately was out of the league after he left the Celtics. He carved out the same bench role for Evan Turner, which earned him 80 million dollars. He developed Sullinger in an impact big (albeit inefficient), and he is now out of the league. He carved an MVP type role for Thomas.

CBS has done it again and again, which is why, I think, as long as he is our coach, we will never have a depth problem. He can take any foreigner or 2nd rounder and turn them into a serviceable player in our rotation.

Also, this is why Al Horford is so special, too. Just like Green, Horford knows how to have a great impact in a specific role, and he doesn't try to do too much.

Incidentally, this is why I've always had high hopes for Marcus Smart. I've always wondered, if he could find his role, if he could be a guard version of Green. The problem is that he has a poor feel for the game and his teammates. He consistently tries to do too much, instead of playing and impacting the game within his role.

Anyway, back to Irving. Instead of being asked to score (like on the Cavs), now Irving's role is to build the confidence of his teammates (noticeable connection with Horford and Brown), score in his spots, and set the tone on defense.

Irving's early season has shown me that, when he is locked in, he has some of the fastest hands and best anticipation of anyone in the NBA. I love the effort on most possessions. CBS doesn't ask him to guard the best guard (for the most part), but in his role, Irving is wreaking havoc off-ball and in short stints on ball. He gets tons of deflections and steals. He contests most shots really well.

Yep, and on cue, Horford and Irving have games like tonight against an elite Western conference team on the road! 

[Phantom255x]

Btw, Kyrie now #4 in deflections/game and 2ND in defensive win-shares! 

[Sophomore]

I don't believe he's as good as the defensive statistics are saying - he's not really an elite defender at the top of the league -- we all know how hard it is to measure D with advanced stats. But he's clearly doing some very good things (deflections, steals, points per possession of players he guards), and to me he looks at least average, maybe better than average, by the eye test as well. The deflections and steals are obvious, but so is the work he's putting in to get around picks and get in the right position, which helps set a tone for the defense as a whole. Here's Kevin O'Connor noticing the same thing, with film to back it up. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/11/6/16610530/nba-skills-ben-simmons-kyrie-irving-klay-thompson

There were a few times last night when his man got by him and got to the rim, but on at least one he recovered for a clean block (and got a bad whistle) and on others the help was late (it sure looked like for a lot of the first half the scheme called for guards to channel penetrators to the help). On the whole, no, I don't believe he's as stout as Marcus (who continues to be a genius at getting around picks and on using space and his body to disrupt opponents) or as long and springy as TR. But that's setting the bar pretty high. Net, he's not a liability and he does come up with plays that break up opposing offenses and lead to turnovers.

What are others seeing in his defense? Biggest weaknesses, underappreciated skills?

[tarheelsxxiii]

He's a very good ball hawker.  High IQ, anticipates well, and makes plays on the ball like Curry.  His effort has also been very good this far.  But he's also very slow laterally, and easily bullied in the paint.

[footey]

One of the major criticisms of the trade was that we were going to be a worse defensive team. That ship has sailed ten games into the season. Stat geeks take note.

[hpantazo]

One of the major criticisms of the trade was that we were going to be a worse defensive team. That ship has sailed ten games into the season. Stat geeks take note.

The stat geeks can suck it. Kyrie is a top tier defender so far this season, and we have the #1 defense in the league.

[Erik]

Right. There's a difference between hasn't played well and can't play well.

Defensively, IT can't play well. Kyrie hasn't played well. Hasn't can be fixed by good coaching and work ethic.

Most NBA players can just shoot right over IT without having to create space. That's especially troubling when you factor in the players he's supposed to be guarding: John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and about 10 other guards who could run a 1-2 PnR, get IT on the shooter and abuse him.

This can no longer happen because our starting lineup consists of wings who are completely interchangeable. If you watch games, teams are basically abandoning the PnR against us because there's really no point since we just switch everything. The PnR has been the go to offense since I can remember.

When we talk about positionless basketball, you can't have players like IT. Thats why we gave up the BRK pick for Kyrie. And he's only going to be getting better at defense.

[saltlover]

One of the major criticisms of the trade was that we were going to be a worse defensive team. That ship has sailed ten games into the season. Stat geeks take note.

As a major criticizer, that wasn’t my objection.  My hope was that Stevens would be able to get enough out of Kyrie defensively to make the deal worth it.  I believed Kyrie could be a better defender than IT — he just hadn’t been in Cleveland.  Both due to scheme and renewed effort on Kyrie’s part, we now don’t have a defensive liability at the PG spot.

I think people who were concerned about defense were more worried about the loss of Avery, and trading Jae rekindled those fears.  I felt that Morris and Hayward were good enough defenders to hold up there, and Tatum has been better than anyone could have reasonably expected at the defensive end.  Maybe some were concerned about Zizic, but I think we’re more likely to miss Zizic in a coupe years rather than this one — rookie centers are rarely defensive assets.

My objections remain, and they won’t go away without a title in the next six seasons.  I will be happy to come to all of these threads and say I was wrong.  But defensive concerns never felt like a legitimate concern for this trade.

[PAOBoston]

I don't think he's great but he hasn't really been a sieve everyone made him out to be earlier in the summer. You can tell he is putting a concerted effort in that area. He'll never be like Smart on defense but he doesn't really have to be.

[Rosco917]

He more than holds his own. That fact alone is benefitting the overall team defense greatly.

IMO if you replace Kyrie with last years Point Guard, the defense takes a dramatic plunge.

[Sophomore]

He's a very good ball hawker.  High IQ, anticipates well, and makes plays on the ball like Curry.  His effort has also been very good this far.  But he's also very slow laterally, and easily bullied in the paint.

Interesting; I'll be looking at his lateral mobility. One thing I wonder - it does seem like the Celtics' scheme sometimes calls for guards to send opposing ballhandlers to their weak hand or funnel them to help. In those cases guards like Terry R sometimes seem to let their man go right by. Always surprises me and I'm still not sure whether to put that down to an inability to stay between the man and the basket or to the scheme.

[smokeablount]

He's been about as good as anyone on our team at defense so far this year.  Baynes and Horford have been great defenders protecting the rim and in the post, respectively, which likely makes a bigger impact on a team's defense... but Kyrie's play on the perimeter and in transition has been top notch.  Other than fighting harder to avoid going under picks, you can't ask for much more.

[tarheelsxxiii]

He's a very good ball hawker.  High IQ, anticipates well, and makes plays on the ball like Curry.  His effort has also been very good this far.  But he's also very slow laterally, and easily bullied in the paint.

Interesting; I'll be looking at his lateral mobility. One thing I wonder - it does seem like the Celtics' scheme sometimes calls for guards to send opposing ballhandlers to their weak hand or funnel them to help. In those cases guards like Terry R sometimes seem to let their man go right by. Always surprises me and I'm still not sure whether to put that down to an inability to stay between the man and the basket or to the scheme.

I noticed that too.  I can't figure out why Rozier struggles in that regard, but it's a shame - he has so much potential as a defender.  I imagine it's one (or more) of difficulty adjusting to the speed of the game, poor positioning, or laziness. 

[jambr380]

He's a very good ball hawker.  High IQ, anticipates well, and makes plays on the ball like Curry.  His effort has also been very good this far.  But he's also very slow laterally, and easily bullied in the paint.

Interesting; I'll be looking at his lateral mobility. One thing I wonder - it does seem like the Celtics' scheme sometimes calls for guards to send opposing ballhandlers to their weak hand or funnel them to help. In those cases guards like Terry R sometimes seem to let their man go right by. Always surprises me and I'm still not sure whether to put that down to an inability to stay between the man and the basket or to the scheme.

I noticed that too.  I can't figure out why Rozier struggles in that regard, but it's a shame - he has so much potential as a defender.  I imagine it's one (or more) of difficulty adjusting to the speed of the game, poor positioning, or laziness.

I think it has to be scheme related. I was at the game last night and kept a keen eye on Terry on the defensive end (people were saying he was a 'poor' defender and I wasn't sure why). What I saw was Terry staying with his man on the penetration until Horford or another big stepped up, then Terry would jump out to one of the guys standing on the perimeter as to not allow a pass for an open 3. Against a team like Orlando, this seemed to make sense since they are relying so heavily on 3s this season.

I don't know if it looks like Terry is leaving his man too early or he is getting beat, but Stevens seems to have very good things to say about his defense. And, of course, his rebounding is to die for!