Author Topic: Kyrie's defense (merged threads)  (Read 8963 times)

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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2017, 12:53:50 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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This is like early on a couple seasons back when some metrics were scoring Olynyk as one of the best defenders in the league. 

It's a testament to defensive effort and improvement but shouldn't be interpreted as them actually being at that lofty a level. Kyrie will regress to the mean but we should still take this as a very positive sign.
If Kyrie can play into the system that results in a top 10 defense we should be pretty darn happy with it given his offensive talent.

Though I'm worried about the C's offense this season given the overall poor shooting we have as a team right now.

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2017, 12:57:03 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This is like early on a couple seasons back when some metrics were scoring Olynyk as one of the best defenders in the league. 

It's a testament to defensive effort and improvement but shouldn't be interpreted as them actually being at that lofty a level. Kyrie will regress to the mean but we should still take this as a very positive sign.

That Olynyk reference seems like a dig. He has been much better than Olynyk ever was so far. With Olynyk, the eye test did not match the measurable. With Kyrie, so far they match up.

It's not, and Olynyk was a plus defender when healthy his last couple years here. For some stretches he was even better than that.

My point is that the eye test matched both guys playing good defense, but just not being elite defenders like the early stats suggested.

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2017, 01:03:30 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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This is like early on a couple seasons back when some metrics were scoring Olynyk as one of the best defenders in the league. 

It's a testament to defensive effort and improvement but shouldn't be interpreted as them actually being at that lofty a level. Kyrie will regress to the mean but we should still take this as a very positive sign.

That Olynyk reference seems like a dig. He has been much better than Olynyk ever was so far. With Olynyk, the eye test did not match the measurable. With Kyrie, so far they match up.

It's not, and Olynyk was a plus defender when healthy his last couple years here. For some stretches he was even better than that.

My point is that the eye test matched both guys playing good defense, but just not being elite defenders like the early stats suggested.

Except even I never acknowledged here that Kyrie was an elite defender or a legitimate Top-20 defender in the league.

Just some positive and encouraging signs.

Kyrie was a HORRIBLE defender with CLE so it's a big difference.
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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2017, 01:15:02 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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More like top 10.  I told you idiots to be patient..

As someone that's actually been pro trade and pro Kyrie defense this entire time, I'm pretty sure you have been poo pooing about Kyrie for what, two months?

I assumed his comment was sarcasm lol. He hated the trade. I didn't like it either, but not b/c of the player, but b/c of the overall package (which was an overpay). But that was the past.

Yeah I was trying to figure out if it was sarcasm based on the first sentence, but the second sentence ruins any effect from the first, and in any event there's no rebuttal to the value of those stats and no counter to the OP's claim.  But in any event, TP for you.

It was a joke.  I'm still getting over the trade, but he has been a lot better on defense than I expected.  So quit your secret handshakes.

I just want you to be happy bro! I know you're a UNC guy but our (suddenly 2-way) alpha dog and our (historically efficient thus far) impact rookie are Dukies. Can't the ACC just get along???

No!

Tar Heel fans have no redeeming qualities and are not welcome around here. They should have to root for the Sacramento Kings.
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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2017, 01:37:21 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This is like early on a couple seasons back when some metrics were scoring Olynyk as one of the best defenders in the league. 

It's a testament to defensive effort and improvement but shouldn't be interpreted as them actually being at that lofty a level. Kyrie will regress to the mean but we should still take this as a very positive sign.

That Olynyk reference seems like a dig. He has been much better than Olynyk ever was so far. With Olynyk, the eye test did not match the measurable. With Kyrie, so far they match up.

It's not, and Olynyk was a plus defender when healthy his last couple years here. For some stretches he was even better than that.

My point is that the eye test matched both guys playing good defense, but just not being elite defenders like the early stats suggested.

Except even I never acknowledged here that Kyrie was an elite defender or a legitimate Top-20 defender in the league.

Just some positive and encouraging signs.

Kyrie was a HORRIBLE defender with CLE so it's a big difference.

I never said you did and it sounds like we're 100% in agreement so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2017, 02:35:53 PM »

Offline Big333223

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru-KnYgD0GQ

Here's a Celtic v. Spurs defensive highlights video from the great Tomasz Kordylewski and Kyrie is all over it. He's got some really nice highlights at 0:53, 2:22, and 3:18. These are just highlights and he still struggles in areas but Kyrie was not making highlight defensive plays last season at all and beyond the highlights, he's playing very solid defense.

It's been terrific to see.
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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2017, 02:37:33 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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This is like early on a couple seasons back when some metrics were scoring Olynyk as one of the best defenders in the league. 

It's a testament to defensive effort and improvement but shouldn't be interpreted as them actually being at that lofty a level. Kyrie will regress to the mean but we should still take this as a very positive sign.

That Olynyk reference seems like a dig. He has been much better than Olynyk ever was so far. With Olynyk, the eye test did not match the measurable. With Kyrie, so far they match up.

It's not, and Olynyk was a plus defender when healthy his last couple years here. For some stretches he was even better than that.

My point is that the eye test matched both guys playing good defense, but just not being elite defenders like the early stats suggested.

Except even I never acknowledged here that Kyrie was an elite defender or a legitimate Top-20 defender in the league.

Just some positive and encouraging signs.

Kyrie was a HORRIBLE defender with CLE so it's a big difference.

I never said you did and it sounds like we're 100% in agreement so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh my bad I guess I misread what you said.  :P
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2017, 09:24:07 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Kyrie now has 21 steals for the season.

That's best in the NBA.  :o
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 09:41:58 PM »

Online SparzWizard

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Clearly the Celtics won this trade.

Cavs can have their four or five players in that deal lol. Celtics got the best player and PG in the East!


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#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2017, 11:59:05 AM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?
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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2017, 09:30:53 AM »

Offline Erik

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If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2017, 09:43:26 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Kyrie is currently 1.7 in defensive box plus minus -- a category he has always been negative. For example last year he was -2.3. That's a +4 point swing which is basically unheard of for a veteran player.  iT was -3.3 last season.

It's not that he couldnt play defense... he has the tools (height,  strength, quickness). No one played defense for the Cavs because they're led by a lousy coach that mails in the regular season.

If it’s so unheard of, maybe let’s wait more than 7 games to lay such praise. If he keeps it up, we got ourselves a truly great player. If he regresses to the defense he played his entire career prior to wearing green, we got a supremely skilled offensive player.

But it’s very early in the season, I’m sure he had 7+ game stretches of good defensive metrics in Cleveland.

Yeah let's just go ahead and shut down the forum while we're at it. It's too soon in the season to begin posting commentary or having fun. Close out all the Tatum hype threads... he could still be a bust.

It could be a fluke or he's bought into team defense. We're just having fun as the data points come in. I don't understand why the "it's too early" people have to be such killjoys

TP. Negative thoughts can spread like a wildfire.

Why would it be ok for sissies to cry that the season is over after 5 min of basketball, but optimistic fans can't talk about the positives after 8 games?

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2017, 09:47:27 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Draymond is so overrated in that some actually consider him a Top-15 player in the league.

HUH???  ???

Great player and great piece on a championship team, but Top-15?? (Implying fringe superstar)
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Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2017, 11:52:34 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Draymond is so overrated in that some actually consider him a Top-15 player in the league.

HUH???  ???

Great player and great piece on a championship team, but Top-15?? (Implying fringe superstar)

Yeah, that's a situation that is subjective, not objective. I think people are talking about apples and oranges.

Is he a top 15 talent? No. On a team that depended on him to score more, or to create more shots, he would post some of the worst shooting percentages in the league. 

Does he have a top 15 impact in his role? Yes. He is perfectly suited to be the pick-man for Curry, Durant, and Thompson. He can role and take advantage of shifting defenses. He can also spend the majority of his energy on the defensive end.

Re: Some Of These Stats Show Kyrie Playing Like A Top-20 Defender
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2017, 12:57:52 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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If he continues to play defense like this, he'll genuinely enter the conversation for top 5-10 players in the league, right?

Not top 5 (this season) but he could sneak into top 10 because there are some pretenders like Chris Paul and draymond green in there.

Draymond is so overrated in that some actually consider him a Top-15 player in the league.

HUH???  ???

Great player and great piece on a championship team, but Top-15?? (Implying fringe superstar)

Yeah, that's a situation that is subjective, not objective. I think people are talking about apples and oranges.

Is he a top 15 talent? No. On a team that depended on him to score more, or to create more shots, he would post some of the worst shooting percentages in the league. 

Does he have a top 15 impact in his role? Yes. He is perfectly suited to be the pick-man for Curry, Durant, and Thompson. He can role and take advantage of shifting defenses. He can also spend the majority of his energy on the defensive end.

Fair enough, and you raise good points.

And yeah I'm referring more to a talent standpoint, like folks out there (like for example, Kellerman) say Draymond is a Top-15 player in the entire league and that he'd have similar impacts on other teams too.

Frankly I think he fits GSW system so well and is complemented well (but honestly he's considered the 4th best player on that loaded team unless you think he's better than Klay.)
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