Author Topic: Trump's tax reform plan  (Read 7440 times)

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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #255 on: December 05, 2017, 01:51:25 PM »

Online slamtheking

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The SS fund is not about health care and it is not part of the federal income tax.  So I don't know why you are bringing it up here.

I'm well aware of what the SS fund is an isn't.  I was making the point we could tie the current system with a national health care law that provides free coverage for everyone, and everyone would pay tax on it.  If you want those to be separate, that's fine.

As for the rest, all I can say at this point is that I guess we disagree on "fairness".  I see no benefit from having certain things be deductible from your tax burden.  Just make the burden low enough without the deductions in the first place, even if that means making it zero for everyone of a similar income bracket.  That's obviously not what happened with the current tax bill, though.  I never said I agreed with the bill.  But I'm also not going be upset about certain exemptions disappearing that don't affect me, nor apologize for that fact this bill actually might save me money.
no apologies would be expected but I suspect that you'd be one of small minority making as much as you've stated and not be worse off if this tax bill goes through as is. 

I have no idea of your personal circumstances where making around $50000 a year would not be claiming mortgage interest or state/local taxes on an itemized form unless you're not a homeowner (renter).   

No children, no mortgage (rent), no state income tax, no school loan (I paid cash for my associates), very low automobile registration fee.

I've never claimed anything but the standard deduction.  The only income I have that is tax exempt are my insurance premiums and HSA contributions, which I will no longer be making in 2018 as I switched back to a PPO and currently have over $4,500 saved in my HSA.  Even my retirement contributions are taxed (Roth IRA).  As far as I can tell my tax rate isn't going up, while conversely, it appears the standard deduction is going up, and as such I'll pay slightly less taxes per dollar of gross income with this bill.
so I'm pretty much on target based on your comments in the thread.

I think that's a key difference in the acceptance/dissatisfaction with this bill is that it comes down to life choices.  I bought a home because if I'm going to spend a lot of money to put a room over my head (not really much choice there considering the housing/rental market in the northeast), I'd rather have something to show at the end for paying out all that money.  the tax/interest deductions didn't play into whether I was going to buy a house although the local taxes did play into where I bought and the amount of money I could spend in purchasing.  I'm not sure how many people buy homes relying on the tax deductions to afford it. 

I have no kids so reap no deductions there but I do admit to not being happy with the volume of my local taxes going to pay for everyone else's kids to go to school but it's something that is unavoidable.  this isn't much different from people being allowed deductions for 'basic' items that build a community (such as purchasing a home, raising kids, going to school for educational advancement). 

I'm curious what impact this tax bill with have on charitable deductions.  My wife and I donate generously through the year and donate what we'd spend on Christmas gifts to charities of our choice.  We don't do it for the tax deduction but if I'm taking a tax hit, I suspect our charitable giving will take a hit as well.


You can still deduct things like mortgage interest, property taxes, and charitable donations as far as I can tell. The biggest problem there is, for most people the loss of the personal exemption will effectively make it so that there's no benefit to itemizing those deductions, because the standard deduction will be higher. Especially if you have children, since they were previously deductible via personal exemptions.

I mean, I make charitable donations too, but I've never been able to deduct them. I pay property taxes indirectly via rent, but don't get to deduct that either.

All of which is to say, I agree that this tax bill did nothing to simplify the tax code. And it does seem they somewhat arbitrarily chose which deduction/exemptions to keep or ditch. I can understand why people negatively affected are wondering why their specific life choices or circumstances are now no longer worthy of a tax break, yet others are.

Which is why I'd be in favor of ditching all the tax breaks and just lowering everyone's taxes enough so the whole system of deductions/exemptions becomes moot.
from what little I've been able to find on this tax bill, those deductions weren't being allowed anymore but you've raised a good point that I had overlooked --  the loss of the personal exemption.  that part focusses more of the pain on the lower and middle classes.   with the exemptions retained, you'd need an astronomically high mortgage/property value to achieve a deduction greater than the new standard deduction-->something only the very wealthy would still be able to really utilize. 

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #256 on: December 05, 2017, 02:50:25 PM »

Offline heyvik

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It looks like there were last minute handwritten throw-ins to further benefit big business.  The Senate bill passed before anyone had a chance to fully review the additions.  Surprise surprise.


Yes, it was an incredibly rushed process, in part because the GOP wanted to get senators on board before the JCT had time to estimate the impact of the bill.

To give a sense of how rushed it was, consider the graphic below comparing the GOP timeline to Obamacare timeline (not sure who produced it, but should be easy enough to verify the dates, if anyone cares to).



Where did you find this graphic!!! Very helpful. I am sick and tired of 'whataboutism' posters on this site saying that the ACA was rammed through without consideration!!!! This proves that they are just spouting a 'conservative' talking point and dog-whistle to the Right. TP!

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #257 on: December 05, 2017, 03:36:09 PM »

Offline Cman

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It looks like there were last minute handwritten throw-ins to further benefit big business.  The Senate bill passed before anyone had a chance to fully review the additions.  Surprise surprise.


Yes, it was an incredibly rushed process, in part because the GOP wanted to get senators on board before the JCT had time to estimate the impact of the bill.

To give a sense of how rushed it was, consider the graphic below comparing the GOP timeline to Obamacare timeline (not sure who produced it, but should be easy enough to verify the dates, if anyone cares to).



Where did you find this graphic!!! Very helpful. I am sick and tired of 'whataboutism' posters on this site saying that the ACA was rammed through without consideration!!!! This proves that they are just spouting a 'conservative' talking point and dog-whistle to the Right. TP!

From this guy on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/937531845549404162
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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #258 on: December 05, 2017, 03:41:28 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #259 on: December 05, 2017, 03:49:14 PM »

Offline Cman

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From this guy on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/937531845549404162
His OTHER tweet is a lot more informative though.

https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/929538716527484928

Agreed.

I'm just shocked that Senators like Collins say they were under the impression that the bill wouldn't have any impact on the deficit (in case anyone doesn't know, it is a $1.5T bill that increases the deficit by $1T). Basically, the Senators were moving so quickly, trying to get in their little constituent specific earmarks, that they didn't have time to look over the JCT or other analyses that were being done on the bill. 

Total con job by the GOP.
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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2017, 04:14:40 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Nearly every Republican Congressmember and all of team Trump are in lockstep saying that this tax "reform" will stimulate growth and be revenue neutral.  Revenue neutral still means significant additional debt but let's set that aside for now.  Do they really believe this?  I think some are so radical these days that they believe all kinds of crazy things including this but many of the more mainstream members cannot possibly believe this in my opinion.  It is those members that scare me the most.  If they know this is a stunt and they are voting for it anyway, what are they really trying to do?

I can't believe this is about donors.  That could be part of it but would these people really sell out at this level for some political donations?  I have a hard time believing the more radical conspiracy theories that the plan is to dismember all safety nets because even they can't think voters are so dumb that they can completely lie about this reform and then still expect to be reelected.

I am honestly at a loss here.  I truly don't understand what is happening but I am sure it is big.  Big in a bad way.  Trump did get elected.  Maybe the Congress-idiots have convinced themselves  that if Trump can get elected (and it appears Roy Moore) by scaring voters with lies about democrats wanting to take away guns and give away America to immigrants, that they can do all this and still get elected too.  Great, the "Be Like Trump-Be Like Roy Moore" movement.  Just what we need.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 04:23:52 PM by Vermont Green »

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2017, 04:25:51 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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From this guy on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/937531845549404162
His OTHER tweet is a lot more informative though.

https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/929538716527484928

Agreed.

I'm just shocked that Senators like Collins say they were under the impression that the bill wouldn't have any impact on the deficit (in case anyone doesn't know, it is a $1.5T bill that increases the deficit by $1T). Basically, the Senators were moving so quickly, trying to get in their little constituent specific earmarks, that they didn't have time to look over the JCT or other analyses that were being done on the bill. 

Total con job by the GOP.

No, they looked it over, they just decided the organization they themselves created, staffed and continue to run must've gotten it wrong, because it didn't produce the conclusion they wanted.

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #262 on: December 05, 2017, 04:54:22 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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From this guy on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/937531845549404162
His OTHER tweet is a lot more informative though.

https://twitter.com/MichaelSLinden/status/929538716527484928

Agreed.

I'm just shocked that Senators like Collins say they were under the impression that the bill wouldn't have any impact on the deficit (in case anyone doesn't know, it is a $1.5T bill that increases the deficit by $1T). Basically, the Senators were moving so quickly, trying to get in their little constituent specific earmarks, that they didn't have time to look over the JCT or other analyses that were being done on the bill. 

Total con job by the GOP.

No, they looked it over, they just decided the organization they themselves created, staffed and continue to run must've gotten it wrong, because it didn't produce the conclusion they wanted.

More likely, they don't care because passing this bill isn't about the deficit.   So it doesn't matter whether they believe the JCT report.    Since the point of this bill is simply about transferring a large  gigantic amount of cash out of future revenues and into the pockets of the elite wealthy, then that's what its about and whatever the various analytics say about it's impact on future debt is irrelevant.

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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #263 on: December 06, 2017, 11:19:23 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Wow what a shocking twist development:


Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #264 on: December 06, 2017, 11:30:02 PM »

Offline blink

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Wow what a shocking twist development:



yeah who saw that coming?  reduce taxes that extremely reduces fed govt revenue (mainly from reduced taxes on the wealthiest people and big companies) and then with that massive increase in the debt you use it as an excuse to take away health benefits and food stamps from the poorest citizens.


Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #265 on: December 07, 2017, 12:25:45 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Wow what a shocking twist development:



Aw Paul Ryan you are...youíre just incorrigible.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #266 on: December 07, 2017, 06:31:03 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Don't ask surprised it has been the game plan for a long time.

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #267 on: December 07, 2017, 07:22:41 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Lower taxes, cut spending. Makes sense to me.


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Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #268 on: December 07, 2017, 07:48:19 AM »

Offline D Dub

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Lower taxes, cut spending. Makes sense to me.

It does, but doing tax cuts first is pretty irresponsible. 

Itís like letting your kid eat desert before their meal, and expecting a positive outcome.

Re: Trump's tax reform plan
« Reply #269 on: December 07, 2017, 08:43:43 AM »

Online slamtheking

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Lower taxes, cut spending. Makes sense to me.
the responsible move is to cut the spending first -- focussing on what's truly bloated first.  of course, what programs are considered bloated will differ from person to person.

Considering their performance relative to their pay, I think Congress and the White House should be paying us rather than the other way around.