Author Topic: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea  (Read 1516 times)

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Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 08:25:45 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Only one magic player that interests me Aaron Gordon.
My Top 5
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1. Davis              1.Fultz              1. Griffin*
2. Cousins          2. Tatum          2. Hayward
3. Butler              3. Jackson       3. Millsap
4. George            4. Ball               4. Lowry
5. Favors             5. Isaac            5. Gali

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 08:47:12 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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He's always been a quality player.  Not "reinvention" if you just keep getting better.
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Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2017, 09:02:27 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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He's always been a quality player.  Not "reinvention" if you just keep getting better.

If you're a 3pt shooter, but then they start going in at a higher rate that's improvement. When you never shot them at all, but had to extend your range significantly in order to adjust to the modern game that's reinventing yourself. The Gasol bros, Lopez, Amir, etc. have all had to reinvent themselves. That's why I don't like the Kanter comparison at all. He does not shoot 3's and offers no spacing on offensive. His game, albeit with better rebounding, is more similar to Okafor's then it is to Vucevic.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2017, 09:54:02 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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I've also been pushing this idea for about two years now, but nobody will listen.

Vicevic is averaging 30 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block while shooting 68% / 54% / 80% so far over his first two games this season.

Over 6 NBA seasons so far he is averaging career numbers of 14.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2 assists  and 50% FG - so it's not like this guy has appeared out of nowhere.  He's been a very, very good big man his entire career, but has been largely ignored due to the fact that he's playing on crappy teams in Orlando.

His game would be an outstanding fit in Boston, and given that he's still only 26-27 years old he'd also be a perfect fit with our development plan moving forward. 

Then on top of that you have the fact that he's only making $12.2M this season, meaning Vucevic and Kyrie would cost us about $31M combined over the next two years.  That's only about $4M a year more then what we are paying Al Hoford (on his own) over the next 3 seasons.

I'd much rather have Kyrie and Vucevic for the next two years at $31M a year, rather than Al Horford for the next 3 years at $27M a year.  If we could move Horford to a contender in a 3-way deal that allows us to take Vucevic back from Orlando, I would be absolutely all over that.

Kyrie (25), Brown (20), Hayward (27), Tatum (19) and Vucevic (27) would give us one seriously special young core moving forward.

Vucevic is nowhere near the player Horford is. You are severely underrating Horford's defense, or simply ignoring Vucevic's bad defense. Horford is every bit as good of a scorer as Vucevic, and he is a better passer. Horford is a better player than Vucevic.

Vucevic is Enes Kanter. Kanter will put up good numbers in New York this year, but he couldn't play in a tough playoff series in the West last year because he was a defensive liability - that's Vucevic.

Again, it's easy to look at raw numbers without context and think "Imagine adding his 14 points and 10 rebounds to this team." But they wouldn't be 14 points and 10 rebounds. On a good team, they might be 11 points and 6 rebounds, and he would only play in certain situations when he wouldn't be a defensive liability. Every bad team needs someone to score, but that doesn't mean their scoring translates to good teams.

As for the Cavs - it was their 3rd game in 4 nights, after tough games against the Celtics and Bucks. In some ways, it was a scheduled loss, especially after they lost Rose to an injury. You better believe that in a game that matters Lebron would run picks with whoever Vucevic is guarding all game and abuse his awful pick-and-roll defense and lateral quickness.

I realize that some of you (Here is a shout out to Roy:-))) on here do not appreciate ESPN's Real Plus Minus, but Big V was ranked 20th in defensive RPM for centers last year out of 60 ranked centers and Kanter was ranked 58th out of the 60 centers.  The two are NOT even in the same ball park!!!

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2017/sort/DRPM/position/9


Smitty77

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2017, 10:57:27 AM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Quote
Only one magic player that interests me Aaron Gordon.

You love a guy who can't shoot?

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3064290/aaron-gordon

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2017, 11:54:02 AM »

Offline action781

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To reiterate a few things already said:

1.  Did he reinvent his defense too?  I admittedly haven't watched yet so don't know, but if not, I'm not so interested.  We already have a stretch 5 who actually can defend.
2.  This is a classic sell-high opportunity for Orlando that I'd rather not fall victim to.  I'd prefer to wait a while and not pay top dollar if I want to target him.
3.  It feels like he's been in the league forever (partly because I used to confuse him with Nik Pekovic years ago), but Vucevic is surprisingly only 27 years old.  A pro is that his age aligns nicely with our core.
4.  Is Orlando definitely in tank mode?
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Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2017, 12:12:43 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Quote
Only one magic player that interests me Aaron Gordon.

You love a guy who can't shoot?

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3064290/aaron-gordon
Defender at the PF spot that you can buy low on.
My Top 5
Trade targets.      Draft.                     FAs
1. Davis              1.Fultz              1. Griffin*
2. Cousins          2. Tatum          2. Hayward
3. Butler              3. Jackson       3. Millsap
4. George            4. Ball               4. Lowry
5. Favors             5. Isaac            5. Gali

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 08:42:02 PM »

Offline Forza Juventus

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I like Vucevic. If Orlando is smart they will sell high on him.
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Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 09:23:53 PM »

Online chilidawg

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I like Vucevic. If Orlando is smart they will sell high on him.

If he's so good wouldn't they just keep him?  His contract is pretty good for a guy who has produced like he has the first couple of games.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 10:13:50 PM »

Offline CELTICSofBOSTON

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How would we get a deal done? What would we have to give up? Those are the biggest questions.  Vucevic is a good player and he would definitely make us better depending on what we would give up for him.
It's about to be crazy, G.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 10:38:41 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I've also been pushing this idea for about two years now, but nobody will listen.

Vicevic is averaging 30 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block while shooting 68% / 54% / 80% so far over his first two games this season.

Over 6 NBA seasons so far he is averaging career numbers of 14.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2 assists  and 50% FG - so it's not like this guy has appeared out of nowhere.  He's been a very, very good big man his entire career, but has been largely ignored due to the fact that he's playing on crappy teams in Orlando.

His game would be an outstanding fit in Boston, and given that he's still only 26-27 years old he'd also be a perfect fit with our development plan moving forward. 

Then on top of that you have the fact that he's only making $12.2M this season, meaning Vucevic and Kyrie would cost us about $31M combined over the next two years.  That's only about $4M a year more then what we are paying Al Hoford (on his own) over the next 3 seasons.

I'd much rather have Kyrie and Vucevic for the next two years at $31M a year, rather than Al Horford for the next 3 years at $27M a year.  If we could move Horford to a contender in a 3-way deal that allows us to take Vucevic back from Orlando, I would be absolutely all over that.

Kyrie (25), Brown (20), Hayward (27), Tatum (19) and Vucevic (27) would give us one seriously special young core moving forward.

Vucevic is nowhere near the player Horford is. You are severely underrating Horford's defense, or simply ignoring Vucevic's bad defense. Horford is every bit as good of a scorer as Vucevic, and he is a better passer. Horford is a better player than Vucevic.

Vucevic is Enes Kanter. Kanter will put up good numbers in New York this year, but he couldn't play in a tough playoff series in the West last year because he was a defensive liability - that's Vucevic.

Again, it's easy to look at raw numbers without context and think "Imagine adding his 14 points and 10 rebounds to this team." But they wouldn't be 14 points and 10 rebounds. On a good team, they might be 11 points and 6 rebounds, and he would only play in certain situations when he wouldn't be a defensive liability. Every bad team needs someone to score, but that doesn't mean their scoring translates to good teams.

As for the Cavs - it was their 3rd game in 4 nights, after tough games against the Celtics and Bucks. In some ways, it was a scheduled loss, especially after they lost Rose to an injury. You better believe that in a game that matters Lebron would run picks with whoever Vucevic is guarding all game and abuse his awful pick-and-roll defense and lateral quickness.

I realize that some of you (Here is a shout out to Roy:-))) on here do not appreciate ESPN's Real Plus Minus, but Big V was ranked 20th in defensive RPM for centers last year out of 60 ranked centers and Kanter was ranked 58th out of the 60 centers.  The two are NOT even in the same ball park!!!

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2017/sort/DRPM/position/9


Smitty77

Shh, don't say it!

Don't tell them that he ranked in the top 1/3 of centers in the league in DRPM. 

Also don't tell them that his Net Rating (which factors in offense and defence) has been pretty solid the last few years of his career despite playing on a garbage lottery team.

He's tall, he's white, and he's European - that immediately means he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, period.  No argument.  End of discussion.   Be gone with your meaningful objective statistical data!  >:(  :P  8)

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 11:37:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I like Vucevic. If Orlando is smart they will sell high on him.

If he's so good wouldn't they just keep him?  His contract is pretty good for a guy who has produced like he has the first couple of games.

The problem is that Orlando have been playing the same old collection of guys for the past 2-3 years, and it's not really going anywhere.  They have been drafting in the lottery for years now, yet haven't picked up anybody who looks to have "game changer" potential, and yet they shown any real progress in the win column either.

Vucevic is a stud, but holding on to him makes little sense for Orlando. He's not the type of game changing superstar who can carry a franchise - he is far more suited to being a secondary or tertiary star on a super-team.   

He also only has two years left on his contact, and when you consider how consistently bad Orlando has been and how much teams are paying for players of his calibre...there seems to be little logical reason for to stay.

Right now Vucevic has a lot of value as a healthy walking double-double who could strengthen an existing playoff team in a huge way.  He'd have two years to build relationships with the staff and players, learn the system, build chemistry - after all that time the probability of him re-signing would likely be a great deal higher.  For these reasons, Orlando should be able to get a pretty nice return if they move him now.

But if they wait until next year, and now you are trying to trade him as a one-year rental, and his value drops to the floor.  Look how little Indiana got for Paul George for that same reason - and he's a far more prolific player than Vucevic.  If you are going to move a guy, you never want to leave it until his contact year. 

For Boston, matching Salary isn't as hard as people may think.  If we send Morris, Rozier and Yabusele that's $9.3M going out - which is enough to make the deal happen (according to Trade Machine).  Throw in a pick (or picks) as necessary.  Not too bad a deal for Orlando, who could use guys like Rozier and Morris on their roster.   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 12:50:54 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 09:02:30 AM »

Offline shake603

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For Boston, matching Salary isn't as hard as people may think.  If we send Morris, Rozier and Yabusele that's $9.3M going out - which is enough to make the deal happen (according to Trade Machine).  Throw in a pick (or picks) as necessary.  Not too bad a deal for Orlando, who could use guys like Rozier and Morris on their roster.

Would you really make that trade?
Objectively do you really believe he's more valuable to this team than those assets?


I'm at work so I can't type it all out but here's my skinny take on it:
  • He's not mobile enough to play defense for Stevens
  • In your scenario above he'd cost valuable assets, who Iíd argue are more valuable than him, especially to us
  • He forces us to move Al Horford down a position, when his best minutes for us have come at Center (his career has been awesome, and primarily at center, why are we trying to change that formula?)
  • His contract make us less flexible in trades
  • I think everybody is sleeping on what a healthy Marcus Morris looks like on this team
  • Rozier is at least for now our insurance in case we canít retain Smart for a reasonable price
  • Yabusele is cost controlled for a long time, and heís quite mobile. I expect him to very good for us eventually but I understand if Iím alone in that

I wonít tell Vuc isnít good, heís just not good for what weíre doing. I even believe the shooting is real for him. He needs a change of scenery but we canít be making moves for a guy who changes us so much and at such high a cost.
 

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 09:47:06 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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For Boston, matching Salary isn't as hard as people may think.  If we send Morris, Rozier and Yabusele that's $9.3M going out - which is enough to make the deal happen (according to Trade Machine).  Throw in a pick (or picks) as necessary.  Not too bad a deal for Orlando, who could use guys like Rozier and Morris on their roster.

Would you really make that trade?
Objectively do you really believe he's more valuable to this team than those assets?


I'm at work so I can't type it all out but here's my skinny take on it:
  • He's not mobile enough to play defense for Stevens
  • In your scenario above he'd cost valuable assets, who Iíd argue are more valuable than him, especially to us
  • He forces us to move Al Horford down a position, when his best minutes for us have come at Center (his career has been awesome, and primarily at center, why are we trying to change that formula?)
  • His contract make us less flexible in trades
  • I think everybody is sleeping on what a healthy Marcus Morris looks like on this team
  • Rozier is at least for now our insurance in case we canít retain Smart for a reasonable price
  • Yabusele is cost controlled for a long time, and heís quite mobile. I expect him to very good for us eventually but I understand if Iím alone in that

I wonít tell Vuc isnít good, heís just not good for what weíre doing. I even believe the shooting is real for him. He needs a change of scenery but we canít be making moves for a guy who changes us so much and at such high a cost.

I second this. The Magic were rumored to want Rozier for Ibaka, who is better than Vucevic. I think you could argue Rozier by himself would be too much to give. I think he is basically Gary Harris/Avery Bradley/KCP, but is probably more athletic that all of those players and plays with more passion.

Then, you'd have to trade Marcus Morris, who, in the modern NBA, is arguably a more valuable player as a versatile 3-4 who can score and defend, especially considering his value contract.

Then, you'd have to add Yabusele, who has higher upside than Vucevic and can already shoot 3s.

Then, you talk about adding picks.

I think people are seriously underestimating the young talent we have on this team. These end-of-the-bench players this year are not like previous years. They aren't just salary filler. They aren't RJ Hunter, Joran Mickey, James Young, etc. These guys are serious talents who can develop. Considering that fact that we are winning a championship this year anyway, I'd much rather run with our team and see what young guys develop.

A Rozier-Yabusele-Morris-Picks package, on talent, is the type of package you give up for an All-star. Vucevic is not an All-star. That package would be more than the Knicks or the Pacers got for their guys.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2017, 12:09:44 AM »

Offline MichaelJ

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Getting Vucevic could be a good move for the Cís.  Davis would be ideal, but heís going to cost a high lottery pick, at least one of Brown/Tatum, and probably more.  Vucevic would cost far less and add size and scoring to a team already playing well.  The Celtics would be in a position to add Vucevic and Hayward, keep their young high ceiling talent, and draft a top young big to groom to take over for Horford.