Author Topic: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea  (Read 1518 times)

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The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« on: October 21, 2017, 09:19:23 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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The Player
Vucevic has always been a very talented player, one who excelled in the low post, shooting mid-range jumpers, and rebounding on both ends. However, last year he began working on extending his range out to the 3pt line. In the previous 5 seasons he took a total of 26 3's, but last year,after a summer of working on it, he took 75 of them (shot 30% on 3's). This summer he continued to work on his range and over the first two games has taken 11 of them (shooting 54.5%) and last night was unstoppable scoring 41 points, grabbing 12 rebounds, and hitting 6 3's.

The Fit
His new found shooting range, along with his always terrific rebounding, would be an ideal fit in Stevens' system. Vucevic is also a sneaky good passer who's able to effectively pass out of the high and low post. His scoring would allow Horford to not assume too much scoring responsibility and his size will conserve Horford from the constant banging against bigger players. Vucevic is also only 26 (turning 27 in a few days), so his age fits perfectly with the established timeline. His contract runs until the summer of 2019 at a very reasonable figure of 12M per.

The Deal
It's no secret that the Magic are in pure tanking mode and goal is to secure a high lottery pick. Vucevic will impact the win total for them and I'm not sure if he's in their longterm plans considering the contract he'll likely command, his age, and how far the Magic are from even being a playoff team. That said, I'm wondering if a trade involving Morris (a 3rd team will likely be ideal for him), a combination of two cheap guys for salary purposes (Yabu, Semi, Larkin, Nader, etc.), and draft pick(s) would seal the deal. Obviously the LAL/Sac pick is off the table, but what about the sneaky good Memphis pick in 2019, the Clippers 2019 pick, or some of our own? Could it take a 1st rd pick and multiple 2nd's?

Thoughts?

Last night's highlights. His shot looks very pure. Quick compact stroke, with excellent follow through, and high release point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFKpaAa5B8

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 09:36:57 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Has he gotten better defensively?
Marcus Smart "Impacts Winning." Boston Celtics Coach Brad Stevens

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 09:47:03 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Vucevic is a nice player, but other teams would give him the Kanter treatment in the playoffs. You wouldn't be able to play him. He is a good scorer, but he wouldn't help the Celtics put up as much points as he would give up in the playoffs.

On top of that, it would ruin the whole versatile-switch-everything that CBS is running this year. The only player who doesn't do that is Baynes, but he is a good rim protector. 

I'm not convinced he is a more valuable player in the modern NBA than Morris by himself, and then we have to add other pieces, including a draft pick and Yabusele, who has the potential to be better than Vucevic. Plus, Morris is an ideal defender for Lebron, which, if we have our eyes set on a championship, is something we need.

If we still had Amir's Contract, I might consider trading him and the Memphis pick for Vucevic, but to get him now we'd have to give up several pieces that, each by themselves, are arguably more valuable.

Besides, we are already proving to be at least an above average rebounding team this year with our gang-rebounding concepts. So Vucevic solves a problem from last year's under-sized team, not this year's team.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 10:43:58 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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I think I was the biggest proponent of trading for Big V in the past and hardly anyone agreed with me.  Funny how he drops 41 and a few agree with me now:-))))

He is a "role player" who has averaged 15.88ppg, 10.62rpg, 2.26 assists per game, and .92 blocks per games while shooting 50.54% from the floor and 72.52% at the line the last FIVE YEARS (not including this year).

Did I mention that he is ONLY making a little over $12 million this year and next?

I think we COULD USE A "ROLE PLAYER" like that IMHO!!!

Smitty77

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 11:27:09 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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I think I was the biggest proponent of trading for Big V in the past and hardly anyone agreed with me.  Funny how he drops 41 and a few agree with me now:-))))

He is a "role player" who has averaged 15.88ppg, 10.62rpg, 2.26 assists per game, and .92 blocks per games while shooting 50.54% from the floor and 72.52% at the line the last FIVE YEARS (not including this year).

Did I mention that he is ONLY making a little over $12 million this year and next?

I think we COULD USE A "ROLE PLAYER" like that IMHO!!!

Smitty77

I've always been a fan of Vucevic, but obviously more so now that he added to 3 to his game.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 11:46:59 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I think I was the biggest proponent of trading for Big V in the past and hardly anyone agreed with me.  Funny how he drops 41 and a few agree with me now:-))))

He is a "role player" who has averaged 15.88ppg, 10.62rpg, 2.26 assists per game, and .92 blocks per games while shooting 50.54% from the floor and 72.52% at the line the last FIVE YEARS (not including this year).

Did I mention that he is ONLY making a little over $12 million this year and next?

I think we COULD USE A "ROLE PLAYER" like that IMHO!!!

Smitty77

It's important to note that he put up those numbers on one of the worst teams in the league over the last 5 years. The old rule is that "someone has to score on bad teams." Remember Michael Carter-Williams winning ROY? Remember Evan Turner scoring 17 ppg in one of the first tankathon seasons in Philly? What about Spencer Hawes averaging 13 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, and 1 block a game in Philly before he fell off a cliff?

Or just look at how Kevin Love's numbers fell off once he got on a good team. He is still really good, but he isn't putting up nearly the numbers he did before. Imagine if Vucevic fell off at the same rate, going from a bottom 10 team to a top 10 team.

Or, to put it another way, if you were a magic fan, and some team offered a young prospect, a first round pick, and good veterans on good contracts for Vucevic, would you take the deal? Absolutely you would. That's a better haul than the Pacers or the Knicks got for Paul George and Carmelo Anthony. 

He's fools gold. You can't play him against good teams and expect to win. He doesn't fit CBS defensive scheme at all.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 10:52:16 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I've also been pushing this idea for about two years now, but nobody will listen.

Vicevic is averaging 30 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block while shooting 68% / 54% / 80% so far over his first two games this season.

Over 6 NBA seasons so far he is averaging career numbers of 14.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2 assists  and 50% FG - so it's not like this guy has appeared out of nowhere.  He's been a very, very good big man his entire career, but has been largely ignored due to the fact that he's playing on crappy teams in Orlando.

His game would be an outstanding fit in Boston, and given that he's still only 26-27 years old he'd also be a perfect fit with our development plan moving forward. 

Then on top of that you have the fact that he's only making $12.2M this season, meaning Vucevic and Kyrie would cost us about $31M combined over the next two years.  That's only about $4M a year more then what we are paying Al Hoford (on his own) over the next 3 seasons.

I'd much rather have Kyrie and Vucevic for the next two years at $31M a year, rather than Al Horford for the next 3 years at $27M a year.  If we could move Horford to a contender in a 3-way deal that allows us to take Vucevic back from Orlando, I would be absolutely all over that.

Kyrie (25), Brown (20), Hayward (27), Tatum (19) and Vucevic (27) would give us one seriously special young core moving forward.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 10:56:24 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I think I was the biggest proponent of trading for Big V in the past and hardly anyone agreed with me.  Funny how he drops 41 and a few agree with me now:-))))

He is a "role player" who has averaged 15.88ppg, 10.62rpg, 2.26 assists per game, and .92 blocks per games while shooting 50.54% from the floor and 72.52% at the line the last FIVE YEARS (not including this year).

Did I mention that he is ONLY making a little over $12 million this year and next?

I think we COULD USE A "ROLE PLAYER" like that IMHO!!!

Smitty77

Or, to put it another way, if you were a magic fan, and some team offered a young prospect, a first round pick, and good veterans on good contracts for Vucevic, would you take the deal? Absolutely you would. That's a better haul than the Pacers or the Knicks got for Paul George and Carmelo Anthony. 

No, I wouldn't.

Not unless it was a young prospect with great potential, and a 1st round pick that had a decent shot at being top 10.   

For a deal centred around Rozier and our the Lakers pick, for example, I'd probably thinking about it - but likely would say no unless I had serious concerns about Vucevic leaving in free agency when his contract is up.  If I did have those concerns, then I would try to make a deal happen now, a year before his contract year, while he still has good value on the market.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 11:06:33 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Well, Vucevic with 23 points, 7 rebounds, 3 blocks vs. Cavaliers on 11-16 shooting.

Have to admit, the guy is off to a HOT start. Big reason Magic are 2-1 now.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 11:22:56 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I've also been pushing this idea for about two years now, but nobody will listen.

Vicevic is averaging 30 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block while shooting 68% / 54% / 80% so far over his first two games this season.

Over 6 NBA seasons so far he is averaging career numbers of 14.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2 assists  and 50% FG - so it's not like this guy has appeared out of nowhere.  He's been a very, very good big man his entire career, but has been largely ignored due to the fact that he's playing on crappy teams in Orlando.

His game would be an outstanding fit in Boston, and given that he's still only 26-27 years old he'd also be a perfect fit with our development plan moving forward. 

Then on top of that you have the fact that he's only making $12.2M this season, meaning Vucevic and Kyrie would cost us about $31M combined over the next two years.  That's only about $4M a year more then what we are paying Al Hoford (on his own) over the next 3 seasons.

I'd much rather have Kyrie and Vucevic for the next two years at $31M a year, rather than Al Horford for the next 3 years at $27M a year.  If we could move Horford to a contender in a 3-way deal that allows us to take Vucevic back from Orlando, I would be absolutely all over that.

Kyrie (25), Brown (20), Hayward (27), Tatum (19) and Vucevic (27) would give us one seriously special young core moving forward.

Vucevic is nowhere near the player Horford is. You are severely underrating Horford's defense, or simply ignoring Vucevic's bad defense. Horford is every bit as good of a scorer as Vucevic, and he is a better passer. Horford is a better player than Vucevic.

Vucevic is Enes Kanter. Kanter will put up good numbers in New York this year, but he couldn't play in a tough playoff series in the West last year because he was a defensive liability - that's Vucevic.

Again, it's easy to look at raw numbers without context and think "Imagine adding his 14 points and 10 rebounds to this team." But they wouldn't be 14 points and 10 rebounds. On a good team, they might be 11 points and 6 rebounds, and he would only play in certain situations when he wouldn't be a defensive liability. Every bad team needs someone to score, but that doesn't mean their scoring translates to good teams.

As for the Cavs - it was their 3rd game in 4 nights, after tough games against the Celtics and Bucks. In some ways, it was a scheduled loss, especially after they lost Rose to an injury. You better believe that in a game that matters Lebron would run picks with whoever Vucevic is guarding all game and abuse his awful pick-and-roll defense and lateral quickness.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 12:08:12 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I've also been pushing this idea for about two years now, but nobody will listen.

Vicevic is averaging 30 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block while shooting 68% / 54% / 80% so far over his first two games this season.

Over 6 NBA seasons so far he is averaging career numbers of 14.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2 assists  and 50% FG - so it's not like this guy has appeared out of nowhere.  He's been a very, very good big man his entire career, but has been largely ignored due to the fact that he's playing on crappy teams in Orlando.

His game would be an outstanding fit in Boston, and given that he's still only 26-27 years old he'd also be a perfect fit with our development plan moving forward. 

Then on top of that you have the fact that he's only making $12.2M this season, meaning Vucevic and Kyrie would cost us about $31M combined over the next two years.  That's only about $4M a year more then what we are paying Al Hoford (on his own) over the next 3 seasons.

I'd much rather have Kyrie and Vucevic for the next two years at $31M a year, rather than Al Horford for the next 3 years at $27M a year.  If we could move Horford to a contender in a 3-way deal that allows us to take Vucevic back from Orlando, I would be absolutely all over that.

Kyrie (25), Brown (20), Hayward (27), Tatum (19) and Vucevic (27) would give us one seriously special young core moving forward.

Vucevic is nowhere near the player Horford is. You are severely underrating Horford's defense, or simply ignoring Vucevic's bad defense. Horford is every bit as good of a scorer as Vucevic, and he is a better passer. Horford is a better player than Vucevic.

Vucevic is Enes Kanter. Kanter will put up good numbers in New York this year, but he couldn't play in a tough playoff series in the West last year because he was a defensive liability - that's Vucevic.

Again, it's easy to look at raw numbers without context and think "Imagine adding his 14 points and 10 rebounds to this team." But they wouldn't be 14 points and 10 rebounds. On a good team, they might be 11 points and 6 rebounds, and he would only play in certain situations when he wouldn't be a defensive liability. Every bad team needs someone to score, but that doesn't mean their scoring translates to good teams.

As for the Cavs - it was their 3rd game in 4 nights, after tough games against the Celtics and Bucks. In some ways, it was a scheduled loss, especially after they lost Rose to an injury. You better believe that in a game that matters Lebron would run picks with whoever Vucevic is guarding all game and abuse his awful pick-and-roll defense and lateral quickness.

Firstly, you are severely exaggerating the "crappiness" of Vucevic's defence.  He's not a good defender, but he's not as bad as you are suggesting.  You have compared Vucevic (who is an average, or perhaps slightly below average defender) to Enes Kanter (who has been the worst defensive big in the league since he entered it). 

Secondly, you are severely understating Vucevic's talent.  While it is true that he's played on mostly poor teams, you don't average 14 and 10 on 50% shooting over 6 years against NBA starters without having some serious talent.   Vucevic is a very skilled post scorer, has an exceptionally good midrange game, and has now extended his range out to the tree point line - which makes him pretty much the perfect offensive big man for today's NBA.  He is also a quality passer, and an elite rebounder. 

Those are his skills - skills don't go away when you play for a better team.   If anything his outright scoring numbers might drop down on a better team due to a reduction in shot attempts, but his offensive efficiency and his rebounding are still going to be major assets - and his defence will only ever look better when he's playing in Brad's system rather than in Orlando.  Hell even Kyrie has looked like a genuinely decent defender this year playing in Brad's system.   

You say that I am underrating Horford's defence - am I, really?  Where did I do that, please quote me.  Because I don't recall saying a single thing about Horford's defence.  Oh right, because I didn't.  Horford is a better defensive player than Vucevic is - I am well aware of that.  But you speak as if Horford is an elite defender and Vucevic is a horrible one, which is not the case.  Horford is an above average defender, nothing more.  Vucevic is an average or slightly below average defender.  There is obviously a difference there, and the difference is significant - but defence isn't the only factor in basketball.

You say that Horford is as good a scorer as Vucevic - I find that funny, because he isn't.  Maybe he was once upon a time, but he isn't anymore.  Did you not watch the game yesterday?  Because I watched Horford trying on multiple occasions to take on Ben Simmons (a modest sized rookie big not known for his defence) in the paint on multiple occasions in the Philly game yesterday, and he bricked horribly on almost every attempt.  Horford's post game dissapeared about 3 years ago, and today he is completely incapable of scoring with consistency down low on anybody unless it's on a horrible mismatch where he has a good 2" height advantage and can shoot right over the top.  His midrange jumper also is not nearly as accurate as it used to be.  There is a very good reason why Horford has averaged some of the lowest scoring numbers and THE lowest FG percentages of his career since coming to Boston - his offensive game is degrading significantly on a year by year basis.  So far this year he's averaging 13 points on 38% shooting and is shooting 27% from three.  The man is not the offensive player he once was, and his offensive game is only dropping off faster as the years go on.  He is absolutely NOT on par with Vucevic anymore as a scorer - he just isn't.

Better passer? Well yes, that's obvious.  Horford is arguably the best passing big man in the NBA.  But Vucevic is a very good passer as well for a big, and he'd fit in Brad's system just fine.

As for Horford being a better player...you know what?  I don't disagree with you.  Horford probably is the better player of the two overall, but it's not by nearly as wide a margin RIGHT NOW as you seem convinced it is, and in the next 2-3 years of Horford's tenure as a Celtic that is likely to turn around very quickly as Horford continues to decline ad a historically fast rate, while Vucevic continutes to improve as he moves towards his prime.

What you seemingly fail to acknowledge here is that Danny is building this team with the intention of competing not today, but 2-3 years from now.  Wyc said this himself, on the record, about 3 days ago.  2-3 years from now Horford is going to be 35 and will be a shadow of his current self, while Vucevic will be 29-30 and just hitting his prime.

See, Horford is a good 4-5 years older than Vucevic, and he's also making more than double the money.  Trading Horford (somehow) for Vucenvic might make us a little bit worst this year ("might" being the operative word) but clear about $15M in salary cap space that we could then use (in addition to that $8M injury exception) to solidify our depth...something we are going to need if we want to genuinely compete 2-3 years from now.

Problem with the Celtics fans here is that your mentality and your goals are not in line with that of the Celtics ownership / management.  You're measuring each player's value to the organisation based on the player they are right now, rather then measuring them based on where they project to be 2-3 years from now (which is the time frame the Cetlics brass are targeting).  This time-frame is the precise reason why Danny traded Thomas for a younger and bigger version of himself in Kyrie.  He understands going younger makes more sense for their grand plan.


Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 04:51:43 AM »

Online Beat LA

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Thoughts?

So let me get this straight, in one thread you've already condemned Semi Ojeleye after a whopping 21 minutes over two games in the NBA because of his supposed weak defense and, in your words, "mental breakdowns" owing to an "analysis" of the latter's most recent performance that wasn't so much analytical as it was confirmation bias, imo, only to now suggest that we trade for a guy who has consistently been one of the worst defensive centers in the league over the past six seasons because, umm, he shoots threes, now? ::) LOL :laugh:.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 05:21:21 AM »

Offline iadera

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Vucevic will likely have his best season and then sail off.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 08:09:45 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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You said a lot of things there. You can't bury another persons arguments under 10 opinions disguised as facts.

1. Al Horford has averaged 17 points over the last 6 years on good teams. Imagine what he might have done on bad teams.
2. Al Horford's offensive rating for his career is 114. Vucevic's is 106. This can't be overlooked. Horford knows how to help his team be a good offense. Vucevic has not figured out how to translate his skills to do that yet (although I think he might start to figure it out soon).
3. Al Horford's defensive rating is under 103 for the past 6 years. Vucevic's is closer to 105.
4. Al Horford has held opponents to 50% shooting at the rim over the last 2 years. Vucevic is over 54%.

Plus -- this fact can't be ignored -- he makes his point guards better (from Jeff Teague to Dennis Shroeder to Isaiah Thomas to Marcus Smart). He will do that with Kyrie, and that is something Vucevic can't do. If Kyrie gets into the MVP conversation in the next couple of years, it will be because of Al.

I can understand the timeline argument, but I can't agree. Horford will produce throughout his contract at a high level. I think his game will be relevant through 35.

Plus, we already have one of the youngest teams in the NBA. Getting guys "on the same timeline" doesn't mean that everyone is the same age. Veteran leadership and stability is a healthy and good thing for young guys to have in order to develop.

Brown, Tatum, Smart, Yabusele, and Rozier all can learn the pick and roll game with one of the best veteran bigs in the NBA. They can learn the nuances of the game. They can learn how to play the right way and win. These guys' development as basketball players will be in part because of Al. These are things Vucevic does not bring to the table.

Vucevic is 75% of Al's offense, 50% of Al's defense, 25% of Al's team play, and 10% of Al's intangibles.

On top of that, I hold to my opinion (and I realize this part is just that) that, in important games, Vucevic would get the Enes Kanter treatment from opposing teams, and the Magic would have to take him out.

Re: The reinvention of Vucevic - trade idea
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2017, 08:15:14 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Given his production, he will likely be expensive. And given our cap situation, pass. I'd rather spend it  on retaining our players. Or if you really want to invest on offensive big man, Okafor could be really cheap right now. Sixers are not doing a good job at increasing his value.