Author Topic: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time  (Read 850 times)

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Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2017, 01:38:17 PM »

Offline RLewis35

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

Add back Bill Walton due to dominance (1 MVP, 2 all NBA teams, 2 times top 2 in MVP voting but never again top 10), but remove Allen Iverson due to "a few amazing years" (1 MVP, 7 all NBA teams - 3 of which are 1st team, and 7 top 10 MVP finished with a CAREER average of 26.7 ppg).

This does not make sense to me. 

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2017, 01:53:08 PM »

Offline gift

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

How do you leave Ray Allen in but confidently remove Paul Pierce? I can see not having Paul Pierce in the top 50, but I have him over Ray Allen.

I wouldn't put Steve Nash top 50 either.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2017, 02:23:52 PM »

Offline moiso

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not a lot to disagree with. 
- I think it's too early to include Steph Curry.

It is too early based on career Win Shares.  He's been incredible over the last 4-5 years, but it's still a fairly short run of All-NBA caliber play compared to some other guards.

However, it is easy to project that he'll end up on that list if he continues at around his current level for another 4-5 years.

You could make a credible argument for him just on the fact that he had one of the most dominant regular seasons ever and has been the best or second best player on a team that's won 65-70+ games for 3 going on 4 years now, plus 2 titles.
I mean they put Shaq on the first list like 4 seasons into his career.  Obviously it was a good call.

I have no issue with Curry.  His last 3+ seasons have been about as good as any player in history's best 3 year period.  2 MVP's (the only unanimous one in history), 2 Titles, and a runner-up in a season you set the all time wins record.  No team in NBA history has had as many wins over a 3 year period as the Warriors, and it is by and large a result of Curry (I mean even last year with Durant missing a bunch of games they didn't miss a beat). 

For me the question is if you remove Miller from the list (as you should) who do you replace him with.  Do you put Westbrook or Paul in his place or keep one of the older guys?
I'd replace him with Paul.  Let Westbrook have a couple more great seasons then look for a place on the list for him.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2017, 02:31:36 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

Add back Bill Walton due to dominance (1 MVP, 2 all NBA teams, 2 times top 2 in MVP voting but never again top 10), but remove Allen Iverson due to "a few amazing years" (1 MVP, 7 all NBA teams - 3 of which are 1st team, and 7 top 10 MVP finished with a CAREER average of 26.7 ppg).

This does not make sense to me.

I am looking at Waltons College years as well as he is definitely one of the most dominant college players ever. Right there with Kareem and Wilt. Sure Walton takes a hit with his late injury filled career but compare that with AI's 2 decent years in college.  I still see AI as a top tier volume scorer with a big heart. Walton was a dominant force for a good 7-8 years if you consider college.

Bill Walton Record FG's 21 of 22..In Champship Final..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAnC4cBXAuY
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 02:46:12 PM by Timdawgg »
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Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2017, 02:38:48 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

How do you leave Ray Allen in but confidently remove Paul Pierce? I can see not having Paul Pierce in the top 50, but I have him over Ray Allen.

I wouldn't put Steve Nash top 50 either.

I think Ray should be cut as well but one thing is that he was a top 5 shooter ever in the game. I think having an elite skill over other NBA players might warrant it. One more ring that he had everything to do with getting it. Without his shot there is no second ring for him.
"If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2017, 02:38:49 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Just don't see Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Reggie Miller and Jason Kidd as top 50 players of all-time. I think the people who put this list together are sleeping on just how good bigs like Schayes, Unseld, Cowens, Walton and Parish were in an age when quality big men were the most important part of winning basketball.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2017, 03:25:10 PM »

Offline RLewis35

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

Add back Bill Walton due to dominance (1 MVP, 2 all NBA teams, 2 times top 2 in MVP voting but never again top 10), but remove Allen Iverson due to "a few amazing years" (1 MVP, 7 all NBA teams - 3 of which are 1st team, and 7 top 10 MVP finished with a CAREER average of 26.7 ppg).

This does not make sense to me.

I am looking at Waltons College years as well as he is definitely one of the most dominant college players ever. Right there with Kareem and Wilt. Sure Walton takes a hit with his late injury filled career but compare that with AI's 2 decent years in college.  I still see AI as a top tier volume scorer with a big heart. Walton was a dominant force for a good 7-8 years if you consider college.

Bill Walton Record FG's 21 of 22..In Champship Final..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAnC4cBXAuY

Makes perfect sense on Walton - I have no qualms with you keeping Walton on.  But to describe AI as having "a few amazing years", I do not think is doing him justice.  He also played on some really bad teams and took one to the finals.  Gotta include AI, IMO.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2017, 03:27:21 PM »

Offline RLewis35

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Here is my revision

They swapped out 14 players.

Those removed from the 96-97 list include some C's
Nate Archibald
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens - ADD BACK- should have never been removed
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler - ADD BACK He was so good and was for a long time
Sam Jones - Barely missed as I want to put him back on but can't think of who to take off (KD?)
Pete Maravich- Really want to leave him on..
Robert Parish - ADD BACK Great offense but I think his defense makes him deserve it.
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton - ADD BACK- He was so dominant
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy - Marginal but I will leave off.

The 14 players they added are mostly pretty obvious and likewise include some C's

Ray Allen - Marginal but I will leave on
Kobe Bryant
Stephen Curry REMOVE - Too early
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant -  marginal He is a lock but maybe should not be there yet leave on (maybe trade Sam Jones for now)
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson- REMOVE - a few amazing years but not enough
Lebron James
Jason Kidd
Reggie Miller- REMOVE - Not even close. maybe top 100
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce - REMOVE - top 100 I have to take my green goggles off.
Dwyane Wade

How do you leave Ray Allen in but confidently remove Paul Pierce? I can see not having Paul Pierce in the top 50, but I have him over Ray Allen.

I wouldn't put Steve Nash top 50 either.

I think Ray should be cut as well but one thing is that he was a top 5 shooter ever in the game. I think having an elite skill over other NBA players might warrant it. One more ring that he had everything to do with getting it. Without his shot there is no second ring for him.

Personally I'd take Reggie Miller over Ray Allen, though if you look at their all-time stats they are unbelievably close.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2017, 04:06:32 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Yeah, Cowens did win two titles and an MVP. That's more than a lot of players on that list can say.

And 8 All-Star appearances as well.   There is no way he should be bumped from the top-50 in favor of probably 4-5 names on that 'new' list.

I would definitely keep Cowens, Sam Jones and probably Clyde Drexler and Pete Maravich in my Top-50.

Walton is tough.  When he played, he was brilliant.  Two rings.  But despite a 13-year career, he only played in 468 regular season games.  He only managed to play 60+ games in 3 of his seasons.   If he HAD been able to stay healthy, he might be one of the top tiny handful of greatest  NBA players of all time.   He's definitely on that list for college players.   But because of the limited size of his NBA career, I can see slipping him off the top-50.

I would not include Miller, Nash, or Iverson in my top 50 and Curry seems way too early to include in it.   I'm iffy on Ray and Kidd.
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Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2017, 05:15:03 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Stephen Curry should definitely not be on the list. I would take him off for either Gary Payton or Dennis Rodman.
Stephen Curry has 2 MVP's and 2 titles (one as the team leader).  He is the greatest shooter in NBA history.  He is far more deserving than Rodman or Payton.

I agree. If Curry never played another game, he'd have accomplished more than Rodman and Payton.

I also think Ray Ray and Miller are overrated. They were excellent 3pt shooters, and pretty average otherwise.

I def. would include Iverson. Guy was a warrior.

Love(d) Pierce, but I'm not sure he cracks the top 50. I believe that to make this list, you should be a top 2-3 player in the NBA at any given point. I'm not sure Pierce was ever that good.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2017, 05:30:55 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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not a lot to disagree with. 
- I think it's too early to include Steph Curry.

It is too early based on career Win Shares.  He's been incredible over the last 4-5 years, but it's still a fairly short run of All-NBA caliber play compared to some other guards.

However, it is easy to project that he'll end up on that list if he continues at around his current level for another 4-5 years.

You could make a credible argument for him just on the fact that he had one of the most dominant regular seasons ever and has been the best or second best player on a team that's won 65-70+ games for 3 going on 4 years now, plus 2 titles.
I mean they put Shaq on the first list like 4 seasons into his career.  Obviously it was a good call.

I have no issue with Curry.  His last 3+ seasons have been about as good as any player in history's best 3 year period.  2 MVP's (the only unanimous one in history), 2 Titles, and a runner-up in a season you set the all time wins record.  No team in NBA history has had as many wins over a 3 year period as the Warriors, and it is by and large a result of Curry (I mean even last year with Durant missing a bunch of games they didn't miss a beat). 

For me the question is if you remove Miller from the list (as you should) who do you replace him with.  Do you put Westbrook or Paul in his place or keep one of the older guys?

I agree on Curry. Dude is for real.

IMO, replace Miller with Sam Jones.

Jones is criminally underrated.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2017, 05:52:26 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I know that the 90's list would've been too late for this guy as well as The Undefeated's list, but Arvydas Sabonis deserves to get at LEAST an Honorable Mention somewhere....

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Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2017, 06:28:18 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Reggie Miller is not a top 50 player; other than that the inclusions are all pretty much no-brainers. Put Walton or Sam Jones back in there.
And I really don't get Miller's inclusion.  He was already basically out of his prime in 96-97 when they put the original list together.  He did nothing, except play a long time, after that that would merit inclusion.
He's the first guy I saw that I thought he really doesn't deserve to be here.  The man had some great playoff moments and some longevity and was popular, but that's really it.

3x 3rd team All-NBA, and only twice got votes for MVP (finishing 13th and 16th, receiving a total of three 3rd place votes over the course of his career).  For a guy that was probably never considered top 10 in the NBA for any given season to be considered top 50 overall, I don't know what to say.
Agree with this. I can't even imagine what the argument in the room must've been to get Reggie Miller on this list, let alone over the likes of Clyde Drexler, Sam Jones, or Dominique Wilkins. He was one of the greatest shooters and was good to have in the locker room but did literally nothing else above average. Miller isn't even in the conversation for me.

Steve Nash make it, though. A 2-time MVP (even if I think he only deserved 1 of them) who led the league in assist 5 times and was one of the 5 greatest shooters ever, with multiple 50-40-90 seasons.

I'd like to find a spot for Ray on there but I think he's somewhere just below Drexler, Jones, and Pierce. But definitely ahead of Reggie Miller.

Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2017, 06:28:58 PM »

Online gouki88

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Re: The Undefeated's Update to the top 50 players of all time
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2017, 06:34:15 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Stephen Curry should definitely not be on the list. I would take him off for either Gary Payton or Dennis Rodman.
Stephen Curry has 2 MVP's and 2 titles (one as the team leader).  He is the greatest shooter in NBA history.  He is far more deserving than Rodman or Payton.

I don't get the Curry hate either. Not to mention he's also the first unanimous MVP. He should be on this list.
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