Author Topic: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?  (Read 2778 times)

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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2017, 09:46:44 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.
I understand that championships are where it's at.  But this is a pretty warped view of being a fan.  To me, it's about the experience, the hope, and the result.  IT was a great story but we were not close to actually having the hope to win it all.  That's changing, and a lot of it has to do with Kyrie.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2017, 10:02:37 PM »

Offline DooVoo

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For what it's worth, Boson are 3-0 in the preseason so far (despite resting their stars in one game) and have one most games figures against mostly garbage teams...

Meanwhile Cleveland has gone 0-4 in the preseason so far, with three of those four losses coming to teams (Hawks, Bulls, Pacers) who will likely be lottery teams this year.   Yet they lost those games by average margin of 10 PPG, all while giving up an average of 106 PPG. 

They have been so terrible that I actually went way against the odds and put a bet on the Bulls yesterday to beat the Cavs - AND WON!!!

The Cavs defence has been predictably woeful, and they lost those games despite the fact hat four of their starting five (Rose, Wade, Love and Crowder) played in the games against the Hawks and Pacers, while their entire starting lineup (Rose, Wade, Love, James, Crowder) played against Chicago.  The only justifiable loss was the one to the Wizards, as not only are the Wizards a strong team, but the Cavs also rested their starters.

Again, it's just the preseason - but I really do hope the Cavs disgraceful defence continues and they continue to struggle with that starting five.

There's betting action on preseason games? That seems ridiculous. You may as well bet on a coin toss.

Preseason means zero.

The idea that the preseason means zero is inaccurate. There was a recent stat that showed over 65% of teams with a winning record in the preseason made the playoffs.

You also learn some things in preseason if you are careful. Unlike say MLB in spring training, a lot of what you see in the NBA does translate to the regular season. For instance, the whispers about the Brooklyn Nets actually being not sucking as much looks to be justified. You can just see that watching D'Angleo Russell, Hollis-Jefferson, LaVert, ect. You can also see the Knicks will remain a trainwreck.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2017, 10:17:48 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

Bottom line is, the C's are one star away from a championship (an Anthony Davis, for example).

OR you can hope Tatum and/or Brown grow into stars, but honestly that's still 2 years away at best (or maybe Brown surprises us all and becomes an all-star THIS year..)

The Isaiah-Irving trade wasn't a huge upgrade for us (just a marginal upgrade) and it was primarily Ainge finding stability at the position long term I guess due to Isaiah's injury, age, and the fact that he would command a max next summer.

Before/After the trade, we weren't winning a Finals this year, and it still remains the same that we are 1 star away from Banner 18. IMHO.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2017, 10:32:38 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

I think your valuation for a successful trade is pretty unfair given that its based on IT Celtics making it to the Finals.  A scenario that seems to me would have been highly unlikely considering how the Cavs swallowed up and dominated the 5'9 IT.

No, his trade success criteria isn't based on "IT Celtics" making it to the Finals.   It's based on Kyrie Celtics have to win a title or we are no better off (at winning titles) than we were with IT.
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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2017, 10:32:57 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Just because the value of the assets may not be as valuable as most assumed doesn't mean that it justifies the trade.

Let's say you have a lucky coin that isn't worth much but most everyone seems to think it is. Should you deal the coin for its actual value, or its perceived value? Obviously you would derive the most return for dealing the coin for its perceived value.

Now, we'll never know what other possibilities were out there at the time or in the alternate future where the deal never happened. It's possible that was the best deal we could have gotten and the assets would have depreciated over the course of the season or no stars would become available. What we do think we know is that the BKN pick, at the time of the deal, was considered one of the better draft pick assets out there at the time.

I'm not saying the deal was bad, mind you. I'm just saying that it's faulty logic to justify trades based on what the actual value may be/turn out to be. They should be judged based on what the perceived value is, or what the best possible outcome value is.

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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2017, 10:35:13 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade ó the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

Itís about titles in Boston.  Coming in second wonít be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and thatís the scale it gets graded on.
This seems a little unfair.

What if IT never makes another all star team, the Brooklyn pick winds up #8 and is used to select a journeyman, and Zizic never becomes a full time starter in the NBA? Meanwhile, let's say Kyrie spends the rest of his career with the Celtics, makes 7 more all star teams and the Celtics stay competetive for that whole time but never win it all.

What if Kyrie walks in two seasons, and the Brooklyn pick is number 1?  In my mind, thatís as equally probable as your scenario, but also largely irrelevant.

Ainge traded an All-NBA, heart and soul of the team player, who gave everything he had both physically and emotionally to lead the team to the conference finals, and who played a significant role in recruiting two star players to join him in Boston.  That is a trade with one purpose only ó to win a championship, and soon.  And thatís how Iím judging it.  IT can have five more All-NBA seasons, and the Brooklyn pick can be number 1 overall, providing the Cavs with Luka Doncic, whom Iíve coveted for over a year, and Iíll think the trade was a good one if we win a title with Kyrie.  If that happens in three years, Iíll like the trade then.  Or in five years.  Hopefully itís this year, but regardless, the Celtics just need to win.  Thatís what this trade was about ó Ainge thinks Kyrie is a championship-level star player, and that IT wasnít.  I hope Kyrie proves him right ó but unless and until he does, I wonít like this trade.

Well stated.
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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2017, 10:58:08 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Just because the value of the assets may not be as valuable as most assumed doesn't mean that it justifies the trade.

Let's say you have a lucky coin that isn't worth much but most everyone seems to think it is. Should you deal the coin for its actual value, or its perceived value? Obviously you would derive the most return for dealing the coin for its perceived value.

Now, we'll never know what other possibilities were out there at the time or in the alternate future where the deal never happened. It's possible that was the best deal we could have gotten and the assets would have depreciated over the course of the season or no stars would become available. What we do think we know is that the BKN pick, at the time of the deal, was considered one of the better draft pick assets out there at the time.

I'm not saying the deal was bad, mind you. I'm just saying that it's faulty logic to justify trades based on what the actual value may be/turn out to be. They should be judged based on what the perceived value is, or what the best possible outcome value is.
Yo pretty boy. I looked up basketball player in the dictionary and it said 'Not you!'

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2017, 11:09:52 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

I think your valuation for a successful trade is pretty unfair given that its based on IT Celtics making it to the Finals.  A scenario that seems to me would have been highly unlikely considering how the Cavs swallowed up and dominated the 5'9 IT.

No, his trade success criteria isn't based on "IT Celtics" making it to the Finals.   It's based on Kyrie Celtics have to win a title or we are no better off (at winning titles) than we were with IT.

I think you should re-read what saltover said.  When I further asked him he clearly said it's because he believes the IT Celtics would have made it to the Finals. 

So if Kyrie and the Celtics make it to the Finals thats not good enough because in his mind IT already got us there.

Sounds a little absurd now that Im typing it out myself.




Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2017, 11:17:18 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

I think your valuation for a successful trade is pretty unfair given that its based on IT Celtics making it to the Finals.  A scenario that seems to me would have been highly unlikely considering how the Cavs swallowed up and dominated the 5'9 IT.

No, his trade success criteria isn't based on "IT Celtics" making it to the Finals.   It's based on Kyrie Celtics have to win a title or we are no better off (at winning titles) than we were with IT.

I think you should re-read what saltover said.  When I further asked him he clearly said it's because he believes the IT Celtics would have made it to the Finals. 

So if Kyrie and the Celtics make it to the Finals thats not good enough because in his mind IT already got us there.

Sounds a little absurd now that Im typing it out myself.

I don't think it's absurd to think that IT would have lead us to the Finals. That assumes that Lebron would have left Cleveland, but that seems likely.


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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2017, 01:06:45 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade ó the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

Itís about titles in Boston.  Coming in second wonít be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and thatís the scale it gets graded on.
This seems a little unfair.

What if IT never makes another all star team, the Brooklyn pick winds up #8 and is used to select a journeyman, and Zizic never becomes a full time starter in the NBA? Meanwhile, let's say Kyrie spends the rest of his career with the Celtics, makes 7 more all star teams and the Celtics stay competetive for that whole time but never win it all.

What if Kyrie walks in two seasons, and the Brooklyn pick is number 1?  In my mind, thatís as equally probable as your scenario, but also largely irrelevant.

Ainge traded an All-NBA, heart and soul of the team player, who gave everything he had both physically and emotionally to lead the team to the conference finals, and who played a significant role in recruiting two star players to join him in Boston.  That is a trade with one purpose only ó to win a championship, and soon.  And thatís how Iím judging it.  IT can have five more All-NBA seasons, and the Brooklyn pick can be number 1 overall, providing the Cavs with Luka Doncic, whom Iíve coveted for over a year, and Iíll think the trade was a good one if we win a title with Kyrie.  If that happens in three years, Iíll like the trade then.  Or in five years.  Hopefully itís this year, but regardless, the Celtics just need to win.  Thatís what this trade was about ó Ainge thinks Kyrie is a championship-level star player, and that IT wasnít.  I hope Kyrie proves him right ó but unless and until he does, I wonít like this trade.

To me its not. He did the trade for a better financial situation. IT was due for big bucks going in on his 30s. Would I have given him max? Yes. Do I think Kyrie on max is better? Based on their age, probably.

He also defined the target window better with the trade. So no, this isnt a championship/bust move, its a move to get better short term and long term. We probably have a worst record with IT this year due to him missing games earlier in the season. Integrating IT back in the middle of the year while not rushing him back with all the turnover we had might also give us additional losses.


Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2017, 08:03:08 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  That’s what this trade was about — winning titles soon.  If we don’t, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade — the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

It’s about titles in Boston.  Coming in second won’t be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and that’s the scale it gets graded on.
This seems a little unfair.

What if IT never makes another all star team, the Brooklyn pick winds up #8 and is used to select a journeyman, and Zizic never becomes a full time starter in the NBA? Meanwhile, let's say Kyrie spends the rest of his career with the Celtics, makes 7 more all star teams and the Celtics stay competetive for that whole time but never win it all.

What if Kyrie walks in two seasons, and the Brooklyn pick is number 1?  In my mind, that’s as equally probable as your scenario, but also largely irrelevant.

Ainge traded an All-NBA, heart and soul of the team player, who gave everything he had both physically and emotionally to lead the team to the conference finals, and who played a significant role in recruiting two star players to join him in Boston.  That is a trade with one purpose only — to win a championship, and soon.  And that’s how I’m judging it.  IT can have five more All-NBA seasons, and the Brooklyn pick can be number 1 overall, providing the Cavs with Luka Doncic, whom I’ve coveted for over a year, and I’ll think the trade was a good one if we win a title with Kyrie.  If that happens in three years, I’ll like the trade then.  Or in five years.  Hopefully it’s this year, but regardless, the Celtics just need to win.  That’s what this trade was about — Ainge thinks Kyrie is a championship-level star player, and that IT wasn’t.  I hope Kyrie proves him right — but unless and until he does, I won’t like this trade.
I agree that this could all go bad. The assets Cleveland got could turn out to be much more valuable than Kyrie winds up being to the Celtics. I don't deny in the least that that could happen.

But you didn't really answer the question. To me, this trade is not different than any other trade where both teams are gambling a little by saying, "I think this will turn out better for me than for you." If the assets Ainge traded to get Kyrie all under-perform and Kryie plays great but the team is just short of a championship, I don't understand how you can call that a bad deal for the Celtics.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 08:18:26 AM by Big333223 »

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2017, 09:02:34 AM »

Online Androslav

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After the initial shock (gulp! IT is gone), an hour or so later, I was optimistic about the trade.
I always thought we got a dollar for 4 quarters.

Since then this happened:
1) ITs hip is even more of a question mark. January? February? Is that the time when they allow him to practice? What about the unexpected complications? Tricky business. Imagine us limping without our primary ballhandler till February. I would, unfortunately, have to avoid CB from time to time to escape all the negative posts/threads.
2) Wade signing was apparently necessary due to 1) But it made Cavs weaker defensively and offensively while sapping their chemistry. JR surely isn't happy about his demotion, even more since he is a better fit/player at this stage of their careers. This elephant in the room will get even bigger when IT returns (if they don't trade him once again).
3) Kyrie is fully committed and loves it here (since he came). Many fans were initially skeptical about his heart being in Boston. I was never in that group (explanation is long (thrilling even!) and for another thread)
4) Recent lottery reform favors us, it boosted the value of the potential Kings and Memphis picks.

I like the trade more by each of the 4 mentioned factors. When I see them run out on Tuesday I'll go crazy in 2 in the morning :)
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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2017, 12:56:00 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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Again last night showed my why I love this trade and frankly wont miss either player traded.

1. Kyrie does not have to work as hard for his shot. It was fun watching IT get his but part of the fun was the effort that he put into getting his. Dont have to worry about that anymore.

2. Jaylen's defense will be better that Crowder's by the end of the year. Overall he brings much more to the table than Crowder on O and more versatile on D. Dont have to worry about Crowder taking minutes for Brown to develop.

3. Speaking of developing you dont have to worry about Crowder taking minutes from Tatum either.

4. The size and athletisim of Tatum, Brown, and Hayward has had a great deal of impact on Horford. Horford has been much better on the boards and he doesnt have to create as often for teams who couldnt create Crowder and to a much lesser extent AB.

Big takeaways are that Brown and Tatum get to impact the game much more than they would have with Crowder here. Everyone wants to focus on Kyrie and IT and rightfully so but I think the bigger change is going to be getting rid of Crowder and freeing up those minutes.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2017, 01:05:59 PM »

Offline incoherent

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The eye test is telling me that the competition between Kyrie and IT isn't as close as some would say.

Sure the stats last season compare them favorably.  But the eye test is telling me Kyrie is a couple notches better then IT on offense.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2017, 01:10:49 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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The eye test is telling me that the competition between Kyrie and IT isn't as close as some would say.

Sure the stats last season compare them favorably.  But the eye test is telling me Kyrie is a couple notches better then IT on offense.

And defensively too. Having Kyrie switch on taller players and not have the other 4 guys frantically worrying about who's going to be the help defender is a welcomed sight.