Author Topic: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?  (Read 3389 times)

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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2017, 04:15:44 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2017, 05:04:50 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.



Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2017, 05:10:10 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2017, 05:19:12 PM »

Offline matteo

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

assuming IT is at what % of last years level?  and based on that % that we would have been able to/and willing to retain him (with him performing that high)

If IT's contract had an extra year on it, even at a much higher $ , I would agree with you (unless he is too damaged to play)

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2017, 05:45:20 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

What if Kyrie gets us to the Finals passed the Cavs, but we lose the Warriors?

Would that not be good enough? It's not like IT was going to get us there.

For me, that would not be good enough.  I think the Celtics were set to pass the Cavs next year anyway, and had a good chance of doing so this year given that Irving was forcing a trade.  IT may very well have gotten us there.

I think your valuation for a successful trade is pretty unfair given that its based on IT Celtics making it to the Finals.  A scenario that seems to me would have been highly unlikely considering how the Cavs swallowed up and dominated the 5'9 IT.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2017, 05:46:54 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2017, 06:04:12 PM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

I'm all the way with you here.  Ironically just expressed the same sentiment in the other IT thread.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2017, 06:14:36 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade ó the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

Itís about titles in Boston.  Coming in second wonít be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and thatís the scale it gets graded on.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2017, 06:18:11 PM »

Offline 2short

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Trade only I think as others have put moving crowder was a good thing.  I like Jae and he was solid, on a better club he's a very good sub.  As a started limited, his defense last year WASN'T as good as previous year.  I can't see him happy about sharing minutes with Haywood, Tatum or brown (or Morris for that matter). I really don't see where he could get his minutes???

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2017, 06:25:45 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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For what it's worth, Boson are 3-0 in the preseason so far (despite resting their stars in one game) and have one most games figures against mostly garbage teams...

Meanwhile Cleveland has gone 0-4 in the preseason so far, with three of those four losses coming to teams (Hawks, Bulls, Pacers) who will likely be lottery teams this year.   Yet they lost those games by average margin of 10 PPG, all while giving up an average of 106 PPG. 

They have been so terrible that I actually went way against the odds and put a bet on the Bulls yesterday to beat the Cavs - AND WON!!!

The Cavs defence has been predictably woeful, and they lost those games despite the fact hat four of their starting five (Rose, Wade, Love and Crowder) played in the games against the Hawks and Pacers, while their entire starting lineup (Rose, Wade, Love, James, Crowder) played against Chicago.  The only justifiable loss was the one to the Wizards, as not only are the Wizards a strong team, but the Cavs also rested their starters.

Again, it's just the preseason - but I really do hope the Cavs disgraceful defence continues and they continue to struggle with that starting five.

I think a it's going to be tough for Cleveland to be honest.   Even last season they were a pretty mediocre defensive team, but they were able to remain dominant through elite scoring (Lebron + Kyrie + Love) and rebounding (Love + Thompson).

Now their defence has arguably gotten even worse (with Crowder/Love replacing Love/Thompson up front) their scoring likely remains the same at best, while their rebounding has dropped off just as hard (with Crowder replacing Thompson).  You're now looking at a team who can't defend, cant really rebound very well, and (until It returns) probably isn't able of putting points on the board at nearly the same rate anymore.  They could potentially struggle more than people think.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 06:46:19 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2017, 06:32:04 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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For what it's worth, Boson are 3-0 in the preseason so far (despite resting their stars in one game) and have one most games figures against mostly garbage teams...

Meanwhile Cleveland has gone 0-4 in the preseason so far, with three of those four losses coming to teams (Hawks, Bulls, Pacers) who will likely be lottery teams this year.   Yet they lost those games by average margin of 10 PPG, all while giving up an average of 106 PPG. 

They have been so terrible that I actually went way against the odds and put a bet on the Bulls yesterday to beat the Cavs - AND WON!!!

The Cavs defence has been predictably woeful, and they lost those games despite the fact hat four of their starting five (Rose, Wade, Love and Crowder) played in the games against the Hawks and Pacers, while their entire starting lineup (Rose, Wade, Love, James, Crowder) played against Chicago.  The only justifiable loss was the one to the Wizards, as not only are the Wizards a strong team, but the Cavs also rested their starters.

Again, it's just the preseason - but I really do hope the Cavs disgraceful defence continues and they continue to struggle with that starting five.

There's betting action on preseason games? That seems ridiculous. You may as well bet on a coin toss.

Preseason means zero.


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Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2017, 07:47:55 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade ó the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

Itís about titles in Boston.  Coming in second wonít be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and thatís the scale it gets graded on.
This seems a little unfair.

What if IT never makes another all star team, the Brooklyn pick winds up #8 and is used to select a journeyman, and Zizic never becomes a full time starter in the NBA? Meanwhile, let's say Kyrie spends the rest of his career with the Celtics, makes 7 more all star teams and the Celtics stay competetive for that whole time but never win it all.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2017, 08:45:05 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I will hate this trade unless and until the Celtics win a championship with Kyrie.  Thatís what this trade was about ó winning titles soon.  If we donít, I would have rather kept the guy that embodied what it meant to be a star on the Celtics.

We could win 70 games this year, but without a title it will have been the wrong trade in my book.

So if the Celtics win the east and go to the finals for the next 3-4 years, but fail to get over the Warriors, you will still hate this trade?

Yes.  As I said earlier, I think the Celtics were in line to take over from the Cavs next year, and maybe even this year, pre-trade.  LeBron was likely walking away next summer.  Irving was trying to force a trade ó the next-best offers were coming from Western Conference teams.  The Cavs were done after this year, and depending on the return they got for Kyrie from someone other than the Celtics, they might have been done this year.

Itís about titles in Boston.  Coming in second wonít be worth trading a guy like IT, especially when we probably were going to finish second with him anyway.  This was a championship move by Ainge, and thatís the scale it gets graded on.
This seems a little unfair.

What if IT never makes another all star team, the Brooklyn pick winds up #8 and is used to select a journeyman, and Zizic never becomes a full time starter in the NBA? Meanwhile, let's say Kyrie spends the rest of his career with the Celtics, makes 7 more all star teams and the Celtics stay competetive for that whole time but never win it all.

What if Kyrie walks in two seasons, and the Brooklyn pick is number 1?  In my mind, thatís as equally probable as your scenario, but also largely irrelevant.

Ainge traded an All-NBA, heart and soul of the team player, who gave everything he had both physically and emotionally to lead the team to the conference finals, and who played a significant role in recruiting two star players to join him in Boston.  That is a trade with one purpose only ó to win a championship, and soon.  And thatís how Iím judging it.  IT can have five more All-NBA seasons, and the Brooklyn pick can be number 1 overall, providing the Cavs with Luka Doncic, whom Iíve coveted for over a year, and Iíll think the trade was a good one if we win a title with Kyrie.  If that happens in three years, Iíll like the trade then.  Or in five years.  Hopefully itís this year, but regardless, the Celtics just need to win.  Thatís what this trade was about ó Ainge thinks Kyrie is a championship-level star player, and that IT wasnít.  I hope Kyrie proves him right ó but unless and until he does, I wonít like this trade.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2017, 09:04:38 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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For what it's worth, Boson are 3-0 in the preseason so far (despite resting their stars in one game) and have one most games figures against mostly garbage teams...

Meanwhile Cleveland has gone 0-4 in the preseason so far, with three of those four losses coming to teams (Hawks, Bulls, Pacers) who will likely be lottery teams this year.   Yet they lost those games by average margin of 10 PPG, all while giving up an average of 106 PPG. 

They have been so terrible that I actually went way against the odds and put a bet on the Bulls yesterday to beat the Cavs - AND WON!!!

The Cavs defence has been predictably woeful, and they lost those games despite the fact hat four of their starting five (Rose, Wade, Love and Crowder) played in the games against the Hawks and Pacers, while their entire starting lineup (Rose, Wade, Love, James, Crowder) played against Chicago.  The only justifiable loss was the one to the Wizards, as not only are the Wizards a strong team, but the Cavs also rested their starters.

Again, it's just the preseason - but I really do hope the Cavs disgraceful defence continues and they continue to struggle with that starting five.

There's betting action on preseason games? That seems ridiculous. You may as well bet on a coin toss.

Preseason means zero.

I know, I was actually quite surprised to be honest.  Half of the teams rest their star players, so half of the odds are just plain irrational.  I've done quite well on the action so far already, and these terrible Cavs have only helped haha

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say the preseason means zero.  Obviously it's not the be-all-end-all reflection of how the regular season will go, but I've found that often the surprise teams who come out and do really well in the preseason, tend to have good seasons as well.  E.g. I remember Toronto sweeping the preseason one year following a really mediocre year, and everybody was saying "its just preseason" - then they went on to have a really strong season pretty much out of nowhere and finished in the top 4.

Likewise I tend to find that often Boston's preseason success tends to be consistent with how they end up going in the regular season.

Certainly not a 1:1 comparison here, but I wouldn't go do far as to say it's entirely meaningless.  Often teams can show unexpected strengths/weaknesses in the preseason that do project through to the following season.

Re: Revised feelings on the trade since watching pre-season?
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2017, 09:30:15 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Yes I do have revised feelings:  I no longer care if the guy thinks the Earth is flat.