Author Topic: nader is no james young-  (Read 10183 times)

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Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2017, 12:59:22 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

I don't get why you keep pounding on Nader being "shoot first" and "a black hole".    Are you only going by the tiny less-than-50-minute sample of pre-season here?

The kid averaged just a hair under 4 assists per game in 33.5 mpg in the D-League in a far-more-significant 1332 minutes of play.   For a scoring-forward, that's a pretty healthy assist number.   Sure, the level of competition is less, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly passed the ball to others at a healthy rate for a small foward. 

In the D-League playoffs, he played another 192.8 minutes and dished out assists at an even much higher rate, 4.6 assists on 38.5 mpg.   Overall, for both the regular season and playoffs, he had an AST% of over 20%.  That's a very good number for someone who isn't a point-guard.

I am guessing that 1500+ minutes is a better representation of what his overall play-style is than the tiny handful of minutes he's played in the pre-season so far is.

Just for stylistic comparison, Paul Pierce, who was an excellent facilitator for a scoring forward, averaged 3.5 assists on 34.2 mpg for his career (an AST% rate of 18.7%).

It's certainly fair to wonder if Nader's overall talent is good enough to get him any minutes on a roster with this much wing depth.   But I think your particular criticism of him as a "shoot first / never pass" guy is very odd, not particularly relevant (he's a scoring forward, not a point guard) and not particularly well supported by the most recent large sample of his play style.

I place very little emphasis in the D-League as evidenced by Vander Blue being league MVP and Fab Melo having double digit blocks in a few games. I base my opinion on what I see this pre-season and during the past 2 summer leagues.

That said, I like to see a player perform at this level and play effectively within the scope of the offense. This means sharing the ball, driving and kicking, etc. This does not mean shooting the ball every time it's swung your way. Especially for a marginal talent like Nader.
...

So, basically, you believe a tiny sample of 50 minutes (where he is clearly playing a role lower on the totem pole and under specific constraints on what he is supposed to do) is more indicative of the style of player he is than 1500 minutes (of him playing a more prominent role with more control over what he did on the floor)?  Logical.

Dismiss the level of competition of the D-League all you want (though why you would put _any_ more weight on the Summer League defies logic), how does that account for the stylistic point? 

Again, I'm not going to make out Nader to be a rotation level NBA player.  I just think you have latched onto a particular criticism that is not really founded in anything but cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Of course its logical because in the D-League he handled the ball the majority of the time/facilitied offense and didn't have to play off teammates. It's different in the NBA where he actually has to adapt to a team and have a specific role while going up against the best players in the world. Just like Rozier was able to excel playing the PG in the D-League, but doesn't have the court vision or passing skills to play the position at the NBA level.

Yes, the talent in summer league is better than that in D-League. You have players sprinkled in throughout  the majority of teams that will never sniff a minute of D-League. So while Nader can be the man in the D-League, he had to pay off of Rozier and Brown last year, and Brown and Tatum this season.
Um... no.  It isn't.   SL is populated mainly by guys fresh out of college and 1 or 2-year vets looking to land jobs in the D-League.  And it's rules format and schedule results in a level of play that is barely above street-ball.   Over a tiny handful of games with players shuttled in almost randomly just to get a look at them on the floor.   Giving that more significance than an entire season of organized, coached competition using actual NBA rules and involving essentially the same level of players plus some older, more experienced ones is silly.

How he played in Maine was based on how the coaches (who coach the Celtics system) wanted him to utilize his talents there.   And he definitively showed himself to be a willing passer there.

Quote

Is your argument that your dismissive of what you've seen so far in the preseason and Nader doesn't shoot a lot? If that's the case then so be it. The board is going in a really weird direction with the constant threads overrating some of the worst players in the league, case in point is the one discussing Semi vs Tatum.

Whatever "this board" may be doing, I'm not overrating anyone.  Nowhere have I stated anything about how great Nader or any of the players are based on pre-season.   Nor have I ever stated "Nader doesn't shoot a lot".  I'm pointing out that this particular characterization that YOU have gotten hung up on (that he is all "shoot first" and never passes) is not really supported by any rational basis, if one actually looks in detail at the player in a decent sample size.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 02:08:45 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Yes, the talent in summer league is better than that in D-League. You have players sprinkled in throughout  the majority of teams that will never sniff a minute of D-League. So while Nader can be the man in the D-League, he had to pay off of Rozier and Brown last year, and Brown and Tatum this season.
Um... no.  It isn't.   SL is populated mainly by guys fresh out of college and 1 or 2-year vets looking to land jobs in the D-League.  And it's rules format and schedule results in a level of play that is barely above street-ball.   Over a tiny handful of games with players shuttled in almost randomly just to get a look at them on the floor.   Giving that more significance than an entire season of organized, coached competition using actual NBA rules and involving essentially the same level of players plus some older, more experienced ones is silly.

How he played in Maine was based on how the coaches (who coach the Celtics system) wanted him to utilize his talents there.   And he definitively showed himself to be a willing passer there.

I'm not sure that I agree, here.  At least in the summer league most of the top picks play, whereas in the now G-League isn't it kind of the best of the rest, so to speak?  That's not to say that there aren't talented players in the G-League during the NBA regular season, but I don't believe that the talent pool, if you will, is nearly the same, but I'm probably wrong :-\.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 09:51:18 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Yes, the talent in summer league is better than that in D-League. You have players sprinkled in throughout  the majority of teams that will never sniff a minute of D-League. So while Nader can be the man in the D-League, he had to pay off of Rozier and Brown last year, and Brown and Tatum this season.
Um... no.  It isn't.   SL is populated mainly by guys fresh out of college and 1 or 2-year vets looking to land jobs in the D-League.  And it's rules format and schedule results in a level of play that is barely above street-ball.   Over a tiny handful of games with players shuttled in almost randomly just to get a look at them on the floor.   Giving that more significance than an entire season of organized, coached competition using actual NBA rules and involving essentially the same level of players plus some older, more experienced ones is silly.

How he played in Maine was based on how the coaches (who coach the Celtics system) wanted him to utilize his talents there.   And he definitively showed himself to be a willing passer there.

I'm not sure that I agree, here.  At least in the summer league most of the top picks play, whereas in the now G-League isn't it kind of the best of the rest, so to speak?  That's not to say that there aren't talented players in the G-League during the NBA regular season, but I don't believe that the talent pool, if you will, is nearly the same, but I'm probably wrong :-\.

The upside of the very top talent is less in the G-League than in SL, but the level of experience and physical maturity of the players in the GL is much higher.  Plus the simple fact that they are practicing and training as a real team in a real system for a full season rather than simply thrown out into a street ball shuffle intended to demo them as individuals significantly raises the overall level of play.   Obviously nowhere near the level of the NBA.  But far higher than Summer League.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 11:09:37 AM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

"Abdul?"

"Yes?"

"We need you to shoot the ball and drive to the hoop...ok?"

"Yes, sir."

He, like many other NBA players, has offensive talent. Thus, the team, who has spent a draft pick and a development year on the player, has concluded their investment will be returned on threes and drives to the hoop.

Watch the highlights, that is what he does.

Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

The guy is going to get what? 7 MPG? Ten guys will get more minutes than Abdul Nader.

"Our tenth guy shoots too much."
"Yea, but, they go in too..."
"You gotta point there."


Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2017, 02:55:53 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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WE NEED versatility and an aggressive offense minded player like Nader has a place on this roster I remember when posters blamed KO for being too tentative.
Exactly I agree

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2017, 03:20:33 AM »

Online trickybilly

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As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

So you don't believe that the ability to defend and shoot qualify as NBA skills.  Interesting.

He can shoot wide open 3's with his feet set, but would you be willing to say he's an above average NBA shooter? Just like his defense. I mean it's not bad, but is it really above average?

I get the feeling if Semi is indeed in front of Yabu (which I think he probably is), it will be interesting to see how he fares when he gets switched onto smaller ball-handlers. That will probably be the litmus test for his defense. One of Draymond's biggest strengths is being able to stay in front of smaller guys attacking him on a rotation.

I think by now we can safely say his 3-point shooting will be above average, but as you mention, the key is seeing him do it with less time in NBA (before Iguodala or Paul George comes to close out). His ball-handling is a problem. Olynyk actually did quite well pump-faking the three and then attacking the hole in the D - not sure Semi could do with anywhere near KO's skills.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2017, 06:18:35 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2017, 08:03:49 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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Gorman stressed he is a tough kid and did exceptionally well with minutes given
This was also mirrored by scal after he took the ball into Okafor and switched hands for score,his cuts were also praised-
Quite an accomplishment making this squad after being drafted so low.
The guy can shoot and score at rim he only had one bad shooting game.
He is a back bench rookie -lighten up.
If he is a black hole or ball hog Brad wouldn't hesitate to stop that.He hit an array of shots,a fall away tear drop ,corner and wing threes, scored on hard cuts and in contact switched hands or using euro step to left hand-.
Nader gives hope to G league players and guys that put in effort
I would love his front row seat tonight and at the home opener tomorrow.
Exciting times for rookies.


Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2017, 08:22:44 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2017, 09:09:08 AM »

Offline moiso

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.
But the array was impressive.  In other words he has never met a shot he didn’t like.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2017, 09:54:19 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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Quote
Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.
But the array was impressive.  In other words he has never met a shot he didn’t like.
Nader shot from three 1-2 500% 1-3 .333% and as i said one bad game  0-3 .000% AND 1-2 500%
Field goals .667% 445% the bad game .125% .667%
So he had ONE bad game where he went 1-11 not to be repeated-
I quoted two authorities as a response to a post that Brad and Ainge don't mention Nader -well he is a back bench rookie that has beaten the odds and inspirational for g leaguers and basketball in egypt
Why are you so quick to jump in and malign a hard working rookie from back of bench.
What are your creds ,did you ever play basketball or are you some board vigilante/critic.
Unlike Young, Nader has improved every year,gave up money to stay close in Celtics system and puts effort into improving his defense.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:09:20 AM by rollie mass »

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2017, 01:03:12 PM »

Offline rollie mass

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It seems i now have a vigilante stalker in Eddie house 20,  who doesn't approve of my exuberance and appraisal of the celtics role players.He has sent messages to MY MESSAGES When he was asked not to.
He has gone back to posts in zellers first year where he was knocking down 16 footers like foul shots and his pick and roll with his flip hooks was deadly-he regressed and regressed but had a good first year
 then years ago we had Brandon wright for only a couple of games this guy was 6-10 had 35 inch vertical and 7-5 wingspan-we had sully and Kelly
this guy went back years in an attempt to intimidate and threaten my style of posting.
Now he got it in for Nader who i claim to be better than young and a back bench rookie.He would not dare malign a player except from behind a computer.
Gerald green -he didn't like my calling him a stilletto for Brad to use
He objects to positive posts about our subs or new acquisitions.
I was entertained by Gigi and he at least could shoot-these are posts he brought back
Jerebko regressed from his 2nd half of 2016/15 and had a facial injury-i thought his 3 point shot would be at 40%like the previous year and he bought a house with court inside it
.I am positive till players drop off and don't produce.
EDDIE HOUSE BOARD STALKER a vigilante that loves to take down our players.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:16:11 PM by rollie mass »

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2017, 02:39:28 PM »

Offline Granath

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.

You might want to correct your inaccurate statistics. You can find the official ones here:
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Abdel-Nader/Summary/31320

Making sweeping judgments from exceptionally limited play time in preseason (a whopping 56 minutes) seems rather hasty, doesn't it? Nader had one absolutely dreadful game at Philly. He was AWFUL. 1-8, 3 TOs. The other 3 games were much better.

4-6, 4 rebounds, 10 points in 11 minutes.
5-11, 2 rebounds, 15 points in 21 minutes.
2-3, 1 rebounds, 5 points in 8 minutes.

If much of anything can be gleaned from this, it's that he contributed well in 3 of 4 games. Would anyone expect perfect consistency from a D-Leaguer with no NBA games under his belt?

The sample size is far too small to make much of an impression. But I'm not about to dump all over someone's enthusiasm because of one bad game. Nader is longest of longshots. A transfer to an unexciting Iowa State team who was only 3rd on his team in scoring. A guy who was so obscure that no one had any film on him when he was drafted with the 3rd to last pick in the 2nd round. A guy who, despite the odds, somehow beats out guys drafted much higher than he was to warrant consideration of a roster spot. A guy who goes to the D-League with no great expectations and somehow winds up the MVP of that league. And finally a guy who comes back and makes a NBA Championship contending team.

Nader has far surpassed any reasonable expectations. Given that track record, I'm not about to say what he can or cannot accomplish. I don't think it's wise for anyone else to think they can do so either.

Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2017, 02:50:37 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.

You might want to correct your inaccurate statistics. You can find the official ones here:
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Abdel-Nader/Summary/31320

Making sweeping judgments from exceptionally limited play time in preseason (a whopping 56 minutes) seems rather hasty, doesn't it? Nader had one absolutely dreadful game at Philly. He was AWFUL. 1-8, 3 TOs. The other 3 games were much better.

4-6, 4 rebounds, 10 points in 11 minutes.
5-11, 2 rebounds, 15 points in 21 minutes.
2-3, 1 rebounds, 5 points in 8 minutes.

If much of anything can be gleaned from this, it's that he contributed well in 3 of 4 games. Would anyone expect perfect consistency from a D-Leaguer with no NBA games under his belt?

The sample size is far too small to make much of an impression. But I'm not about to dump all over someone's enthusiasm because of one bad game. Nader is longest of longshots. A transfer to an unexciting Iowa State team who was only 3rd on his team in scoring. A guy who was so obscure that no one had any film on him when he was drafted with the 3rd to last pick in the 2nd round. A guy who, despite the odds, somehow beats out guys drafted much higher than he was to warrant consideration of a roster spot. A guy who goes to the D-League with no great expectations and somehow winds up the MVP of that league. And finally a guy who comes back and makes a NBA Championship contending team.

Nader has far surpassed any reasonable expectations. Given that track record, I'm not about to say what he can or cannot accomplish. I don't think it's wise for anyone else to think they can do so either.

Went off this-
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/abdel-nader-player-stats?seasonType=3

Re: nader is no james young-
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2017, 04:28:08 PM »

Offline Granath

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Nader is coached to execute in this fashion. His employers want him to exploit scoring opportunities at a high rate.

This is absurd.   You mean to tell me that the coaches are basically trashing our system so when Nader comes in.   All the plays stop and it is green light Nader time?     That is a good one, thanks for the laugh.

He is playing that way to ensure he makes the team to impress people.   Funny though, you rarely here Ainge or CBS dote on his preseason play.

Quote
Nader isn't some "rogue ball hog" he is playing his hand with the blessings of the coaching staff.

Let's see how much he plays in the regular season.   The addition is over.

I think Bird was better than him as times in Summer League.   His problem right now is he is forcing it.

This constant Nader hype is like we're trapped in the twilight zone. It's almost as if he didn't just shoot 36% from the field, 23% from 3pt line, and averaged more turnovers (1.6) than assists (1.2) during the preseason. His hype man is going to be sure to disagree with that and spew some nonsense, perhaps even comparing him to an Egyptian based weapon.

You might want to correct your inaccurate statistics. You can find the official ones here:
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Abdel-Nader/Summary/31320

Making sweeping judgments from exceptionally limited play time in preseason (a whopping 56 minutes) seems rather hasty, doesn't it? Nader had one absolutely dreadful game at Philly. He was AWFUL. 1-8, 3 TOs. The other 3 games were much better.

4-6, 4 rebounds, 10 points in 11 minutes.
5-11, 2 rebounds, 15 points in 21 minutes.
2-3, 1 rebounds, 5 points in 8 minutes.

If much of anything can be gleaned from this, it's that he contributed well in 3 of 4 games. Would anyone expect perfect consistency from a D-Leaguer with no NBA games under his belt?

The sample size is far too small to make much of an impression. But I'm not about to dump all over someone's enthusiasm because of one bad game. Nader is longest of longshots. A transfer to an unexciting Iowa State team who was only 3rd on his team in scoring. A guy who was so obscure that no one had any film on him when he was drafted with the 3rd to last pick in the 2nd round. A guy who, despite the odds, somehow beats out guys drafted much higher than he was to warrant consideration of a roster spot. A guy who goes to the D-League with no great expectations and somehow winds up the MVP of that league. And finally a guy who comes back and makes a NBA Championship contending team.

Nader has far surpassed any reasonable expectations. Given that track record, I'm not about to say what he can or cannot accomplish. I don't think it's wise for anyone else to think they can do so either.

Went off this-
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/abdel-nader-player-stats?seasonType=3

The Celtics only played 4 preseason games. That says 5. If they can't get that right, you have to wonder what else they got wrong...which they did (minutes, shooting percentages, points average, etc).

Unless, of course, the Celtics played some mystery game that even they don't know about. http://www.nba.com/celtics/news/pressrelease/2017-preseason-schedule/

I'm not sure many share your opinion that he's a scrub who can't compete with even the 3rd stringers. The game log above shows he contributes. I don't expect him to play much this year but he's worthy as a depth wing.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 04:34:21 PM by Granath »
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.