Author Topic: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team  (Read 5951 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 10:50:22 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
He'll be a back up for Kyrie, Smart, and Larkin.

He's not a PG, he's small for a SG. He still has some upside, and at times shows well.

Showcase him to the 76ers.

He is a better player then Larkin, and I would also say that he has more talent/potential then Smart. 

Whether we see that talent/potential on a consistent basis this year is going to be what determines his role, but he played solid in the playoffs last year (12.5 PTS, 5.7 REB, 4.2 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.3 TO Per-36 on 40%/37%/80% shooting) in only his second NBA season, and he played pretty well yesterday (7 PTS, 2 REB, 1 AST, 3 STL, 0 TO in 19 mins) as well. 

We should really cut Rozier some slack given that he has played about as many minutes so far across his entire career (1,950) as Marcus Smart did in his rookie year alone (1,898).  Rozier has had very little opportunity to fit in to the team system given that he spent much of his first season in the D-League, and most of his second season buried deep on the bench. 

This is really the first time he is in the position to get some consistent playing time in a consistent role, and his play should benefit from that in a big way. 

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2017, 11:13:17 AM »

Offline Rosco917

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6108
  • Tommy Points: 559
He'll be a back up for Kyrie, Smart, and Larkin.

He's not a PG, he's small for a SG. He still has some upside, and at times shows well.

Showcase him to the 76ers.

He is a better player then Larkin, and I would also say that he has more talent/potential then Smart. 

Whether we see that talent/potential on a consistent basis this year is going to be what determines his role, but he played solid in the playoffs last year (12.5 PTS, 5.7 REB, 4.2 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.3 TO Per-36 on 40%/37%/80% shooting) in only his second NBA season, and he played pretty well yesterday (7 PTS, 2 REB, 1 AST, 3 STL, 0 TO in 19 mins) as well. 

We should really cut Rozier some slack given that he has played about as many minutes so far across his entire career (1,950) as Marcus Smart did in his rookie year alone (1,898).  Rozier has had very little opportunity to fit in to the team system given that he spent much of his first season in the D-League, and most of his second season buried deep on the bench. 

This is really the first time he is in the position to get some consistent playing time in a consistent role, and his play should benefit from that in a big way.



You earn minutes in practice, and games, they're not given to you.

It's all in what the team needs, Larkin is a true point guard. T. Ro is a tweener, he's not a PG, and not really a shooting guard.

You may feel he has more talent than Smart, but he's 6-1, while Smart is 6-4 and can defend 3 positions. Defensive versatility is a talent.

He's a good kid, and should be giving a chance to develop, at this point he remains unreliable.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »

Offline coffee425

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 955
  • Tommy Points: 122
Depth & Insurance.

and elite athleticism and defense

the game is about matchups

we need to stop using the word Elite so casually...

elite athleticism at that size = Westbrook/John Wall/Dennis Smith
 Terry might just be above average athleticism...

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean just regular, not elite, defense.. of which he has not proved any good level of defense.

Quote
Even at the end of the game, we lined up in different formation that he hadn't seen and he called out our play before I got the ball. I heard him calling it out. -John Wall on Brad Stevens

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2017, 12:08:43 PM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6227
  • Tommy Points: 823
The problem with T-Ro is that when he plays with Marcus the offense usually turns very ugly.

He's like a classic garbageman, but in a guard's body - he collects stray rebounds, plays hardnose defense, has a high motor. Unfortunately, he is not a reliable shooter and although he can often get by his own man with a dribble, he doesn't pick his spots well. He flies into a second defender or the help rotation comes and stops him, leading to an awkward finish.

He is basically a pretty poor man's Marcus Smart - and doesn't pair well with the real deal. Possibly you can hide him on the second-unit offense if Morris and Tatum turn out to be good passers and he improves his decisionmaking on cuts to the hoop. But I currently see him as a spot substitution for energy when we need it.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2017, 08:16:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
He'll be a back up for Kyrie, Smart, and Larkin.

He's not a PG, he's small for a SG. He still has some upside, and at times shows well.

Showcase him to the 76ers.

He is a better player then Larkin, and I would also say that he has more talent/potential then Smart. 

Whether we see that talent/potential on a consistent basis this year is going to be what determines his role, but he played solid in the playoffs last year (12.5 PTS, 5.7 REB, 4.2 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.3 TO Per-36 on 40%/37%/80% shooting) in only his second NBA season, and he played pretty well yesterday (7 PTS, 2 REB, 1 AST, 3 STL, 0 TO in 19 mins) as well. 

We should really cut Rozier some slack given that he has played about as many minutes so far across his entire career (1,950) as Marcus Smart did in his rookie year alone (1,898).  Rozier has had very little opportunity to fit in to the team system given that he spent much of his first season in the D-League, and most of his second season buried deep on the bench. 

This is really the first time he is in the position to get some consistent playing time in a consistent role, and his play should benefit from that in a big way.



You earn minutes in practice, and games, they're not given to you.

It's all in what the team needs, Larkin is a true point guard. T. Ro is a tweener, he's not a PG, and not really a shooting guard.

You may feel he has more talent than Smart, but he's 6-1, while Smart is 6-4 and can defend 3 positions. Defensive versatility is a talent.

He's a good kid, and should be giving a chance to develop, at this point he remains unreliable.

Draft combine measurements show that Rozier is actually 6'2"  (Refer: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terry-Rozier-58730) and Smart is actually 6'3" (Refer: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marcus-Smart-6284/). 

Rozier's height, wingspan and standing reach are all within 1" of Marcus Smart's own measurements....so in reality, the difference in height / length between Smart and Rozier is highly negligable. 

The key difference between the two is athletically - Smart clearly has far superior strength, while Rozier is clearly much faster end-to-end, quicker at changing directions, and a more explosive leaper.  This is why Smart spends much of his time splitting between the SG/SF spots defensively (as he is better at matching up against more powerfully built guards and forwards) while Rozier tends to cover the PG/SG (as he can better match up against quicker/faster guards).   

You point about earning minutes is something I would normally agree with, but it's not really valid in the case of Rozier vs Smart. 

Smart came into the league when the Celtics were a lottery team with no starting calibre PG (Rondo recovery from major injury, no suitable backup) so Smart was given a starting role and starting minutes at the PG spot by default - he never had to earn the minutes or the role.  It's easy to find your rythym when you are playing 28-30 minutes a night every night.

By comparison Rozier came in to the league when the Celtics were coming off a playoff year, and when they already had a perimeter rotation consisting of Isaiah Thomas (32 MPG), Marcus Smart (27 MPG), Evan Turner (28 MPG), Avery Bradley (33 MPG) and Jae Crowder (31 MPG).    Five well established players who already had their roles locked in.  That's 151/144 possible minutes (because Crowder played some PF) taken up by players who already had pre-established roles.  Rozier never had a chance to break that rotation no matter how much he impressed in practice or in the D-League (and he did impress in both) because there just weren't enough minutes to go around.  He spent much of his time in the D-League for that reason, and when he did get spot NBA minutes it was typically in garbage time at the end of games.

In his second year Rozier did get a permanent roster spot and more consistent playing time, but even then he was battling with Thomas (34 MPG), Bradley (33 MPG) and Smart (30 MPG) - and those three guys accounted for 97 minutes per game.  Simple math will tell you that there are only 96 minutes available in total at the guard spots (48 at PG, 48 at SG) so the only reason Rozier got any minutes at all was because of the combination of injuries, plus the fact that Smart played a solid portion of his minutes at the SF spot.  Even when he did play his minutes fluctuated pretty wildly from 25 minutes on some nights to as little as 6 minutes on others, and he was always playing with different combinations of players.  That makes it very difficult to get a rhythm, especially for a second year guy who practically did not play a meaningful minute in his entire first season.

And while you might have a valid point about Larkin being more of a true PG, you're missing two key points here:

1.  The fact that Larkin (at 5'11" with a 5'10 wingspan and 7'5" standing reach) is a major defensive liability, while Rozier (at 6'2" with a 6'8" wingspan and 8'2" standing reach) is not.  In fact Rozier has shown flashes of potential as a lock down defender (e.g. against John Wall in the playoffs).

2. The fact that the NBA no longer depends on pure point guards the way it once did - in fact there are very few of them left in the NBA, having been replaced almost entirely by modern day shoot-first point guards and combo guards.  Isaiah wasn't a pure PG.  Kyrie isn't a pure PG.  Smart isn't a pure PG.  Damian Lillard isn't a true PG.  In the league today, the PG position is no longer defined by a player's ability to distribute the ball and generate plays for other guys.  As long as you can bring the ball up the court under pressure without bouncing it off your own foot, and can complete a simple pass to a teammate without throwing it in to the crowd, then you can pretty much play the PG spot in today's NBA. And Rozier can do both of those things just fine - in fact he is the only Celtic who finished top 6 on the team in both AST% and TO% - a feat he managed to achieve in both the regular season and the playoffs.  So while he may not be a pure, traditional, past-first PG, he's perfectly capable of playing the PG spot effectively in today's NBA.

They key point with Rozier is going to be consistency.  In each of his first two seasons, he struggled with horrible inconsistency during the regular season, only to step things up in a big way come playoff time.  He needs to come out and prove that he can play like "Playoff Rozier" (TM) during the regular season as well...because having one nice game in every 5 or 6 isn't going to cut it.  Given a move consistent role and more consistent minutes I'm confident that he can do that, but time will tell.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 11:42:37 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2017, 11:46:04 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
The problem with T-Ro is that when he plays with Marcus the offense usually turns very ugly.

He's like a classic garbageman, but in a guard's body - he collects stray rebounds, plays hardnose defense, has a high motor. Unfortunately, he is not a reliable shooter and although he can often get by his own man with a dribble, he doesn't pick his spots well. He flies into a second defender or the help rotation comes and stops him, leading to an awkward finish.

He is basically a pretty poor man's Marcus Smart - and doesn't pair well with the real deal. Possibly you can hide him on the second-unit offense if Morris and Tatum turn out to be good passers and he improves his decisionmaking on cuts to the hoop. But I currently see him as a spot substitution for energy when we need it.

I disagree with almost all of this. 

Rozier actually has a pretty strong midrange game, and he's show plenty of samples of solid outside shooting as well (he's shot quite nicely in summer league, preseason and playoff games). 

Unlike Smart, Rozier has he has pretty good form on his shot, and also has the quickness/handle to be able to get in to the paint more or less whenever he wants to - he just needs to get better at finishing and making the right decisions once he gets in there, and that's something that should improve with time. 

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 12:36:40 AM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6227
  • Tommy Points: 823
The problem with T-Ro is that when he plays with Marcus the offense usually turns very ugly.

He's like a classic garbageman, but in a guard's body - he collects stray rebounds, plays hardnose defense, has a high motor. Unfortunately, he is not a reliable shooter and although he can often get by his own man with a dribble, he doesn't pick his spots well. He flies into a second defender or the help rotation comes and stops him, leading to an awkward finish.

He is basically a pretty poor man's Marcus Smart - and doesn't pair well with the real deal. Possibly you can hide him on the second-unit offense if Morris and Tatum turn out to be good passers and he improves his decisionmaking on cuts to the hoop. But I currently see him as a spot substitution for energy when we need it.

I disagree with almost all of this. 

Rozier actually has a pretty strong midrange game, and he's show plenty of samples of solid outside shooting as well (he's shot quite nicely in summer league, preseason and playoff games). 

Unlike Smart, Rozier has he has pretty good form on his shot, and also has the quickness/handle to be able to get in to the paint more or less whenever he wants to - he just needs to get better at finishing and making the right decisions once he gets in there, and that's something that should improve with time.

You didn't address the main point – that you can't play Rozier and Smart together right now. The offense becomes a mess. And if you have to choose one of them, you're clearly going to choose Smart. He's taller, a better defender, and has a knack for making big plays. He's a better point guard. And I'm sorry, but he is no worse a shooter than Rozier.

You say Rozier has a pretty strong midrange game, but TR and Marcus shoot almost exactly the same percentage, including from 10 to 16 feet. They're both pretty bad. For what it's worth, if you go to advanced stats, Marcus' true shooting percentage is four points higher.

As to who is more likely to improve as a shooter, everyone has their opinion. We're all guessing. I put a lot of stock in the fact that Marcus was actually a good three-point shooter from the corner last year – you can look it up, he shot 41 1/2% on a decent number of shots. If he improves his shot selection, he'll be better. The big payoff, though, will come if his form improvements from over the summer stick. Did you watch the Charlotte game? He doesn't bring the ball up over his head anymore or shoot after he reaches the peak of his jump. The shot is coming from in front of his face and he's using his leg drive to get the shot up. Result: 3-7. I am obviously not going to the bank on this - he's been bad for too long - but I am hoping. He's still only 23, and seeing the way he has improved his free-throw shooting and ballhandling over the last two years tells me he's capable of making real progress. I don't count him out.

Terry's drives, while they are tantalizing to watch, too often end in a brick wall or a blown layup. He doesn't dish many assists and I can remember a whole bunch of really bad passes. He is young too, and at some point he may unlock his talent. For now though, he's a shooting guard who can't shoot or slash with a purpose. Marcus has a higher basketball IQ on both sides of the floor (I'm not saying he's any kind of genius on the offensive end – just that Rozier is not up to his level). The result is you can only play one of them if you want offense, and it's pretty clear which one it has to be.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 10:52:45 PM »

Offline flybono

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1012
  • Tommy Points: 48
Water boy

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 08:07:45 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
Trade bait .

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2017, 08:51:21 AM »

Offline cltc5

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7054
  • Tommy Points: 445
Potential 6th man sg

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2017, 09:47:52 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
The problem with T-Ro is that when he plays with Marcus the offense usually turns very ugly.

He's like a classic garbageman, but in a guard's body - he collects stray rebounds, plays hardnose defense, has a high motor. Unfortunately, he is not a reliable shooter and although he can often get by his own man with a dribble, he doesn't pick his spots well. He flies into a second defender or the help rotation comes and stops him, leading to an awkward finish.

He is basically a pretty poor man's Marcus Smart - and doesn't pair well with the real deal. Possibly you can hide him on the second-unit offense if Morris and Tatum turn out to be good passers and he improves his decisionmaking on cuts to the hoop. But I currently see him as a spot substitution for energy when we need it.

I disagree with almost all of this. 

Rozier actually has a pretty strong midrange game, and he's show plenty of samples of solid outside shooting as well (he's shot quite nicely in summer league, preseason and playoff games). 

Unlike Smart, Rozier has he has pretty good form on his shot, and also has the quickness/handle to be able to get in to the paint more or less whenever he wants to - he just needs to get better at finishing and making the right decisions once he gets in there, and that's something that should improve with time.

You didn't address the main point – that you can't play Rozier and Smart together right now.

My apologies, here is my response to your point - yes you can. 

They were actually EXTREMELY effective together in the playoffs, and seem to have been very effective together almost every time I've watched them...so no idea where you are getting this from.

Rozier is actually a pretty good shooter, is a quality ball handler, has great quickness, and is capable of creating his own shot.  Those three things have been Smart's biggest weaknesses, so they compliment each other nicely.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:56:37 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2017, 09:50:38 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
lol love how people constantly hate on Rozier, yet today he probably had the best game of anybody on the team other than Kyrie.

13 pts, 2 rebounds, 3 assits (6-6 FT) in 19 minutes and a +13 (2nd on the team).

But it's OK, I know people will come out and argue that he was horrible today and should be traded for a 2nd round pick so we can give his minutes to Shane "end of bench" Larkin.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2017, 10:35:47 PM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6846
  • Tommy Points: 448
lol love how people constantly hate on Rozier, yet today he probably had the best game of anybody on the team other than Kyrie.

13 pts, 2 rebounds, 3 assits (6-6 FT) in 19 minutes and a +13 (2nd on the team).

But it's OK, I know people will come out and argue that he was horrible today and should be traded for a 2nd round pick so we can give his minutes to Shane "end of bench" Larkin.

I'm really high on him.  It's a perfect situation for him.  He doesn't have to run the offense (I don't think so much of him in that kind of role), he just will get the ball and get to shoot (which he is doing well) or make a play off the dribble.  And then defend, which I think he also has looked better doing.

He looks improved though.  The game has slowed for him and I think he knows where he needs to get to more.  The crossover he had in this game at one point at the FT line that got him into the paint was very nice.
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2017, 10:39:15 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
lol love how people constantly hate on Rozier, yet today he probably had the best game of anybody on the team other than Kyrie.

13 pts, 2 rebounds, 3 assits (6-6 FT) in 19 minutes and a +13 (2nd on the team).

But it's OK, I know people will come out and argue that he was horrible today and should be traded for a 2nd round pick so we can give his minutes to Shane "end of bench" Larkin.

I agree, and TP for all of the boasting of Rozier prior to this game.

And, do people seriously think that Rozier doesn't have elite athleticism? I thought that was a given. He covers ground like he is on [extremely agile] ice skates and he has a real nose for the ball. Thinking that Larkin might be more useful to our team than Rozier is laughable.

Re: What's the role of Terry Rozier on this team
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2017, 10:40:59 PM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6846
  • Tommy Points: 448
lol love how people constantly hate on Rozier, yet today he probably had the best game of anybody on the team other than Kyrie.

13 pts, 2 rebounds, 3 assits (6-6 FT) in 19 minutes and a +13 (2nd on the team).

But it's OK, I know people will come out and argue that he was horrible today and should be traded for a 2nd round pick so we can give his minutes to Shane "end of bench" Larkin.

I agree, and TP for all of the boasting of Rozier prior to this game.

And, do people seriously think that Rozier doesn't have elite athleticism? I thought that was a given. He covers ground like he is on [extremely agile] ice skates and he has a real nose for the ball. Thinking that Larkin might be more useful to our team than Rozier is laughable.

I will say I like Larkin but Rozier has potential past him for sure.  Larkin would be solid to have on the team but the question comes if you can use other things.

Rozier has an insanely quick first step and seems to cover a ton of ground with them.  He has a stop and start kind of style to his ball handling that is different but really effective because yes he is very athletic.  That's why he can grab some rebounds as well.

EDIT: Here's that Rozier play again:

https://twitter.com/BloodRunsGreen_/status/916454981183725568
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford