Celtics Basketball > Celtics Talk
For those bullish on Kyrie vs. IT
smokeablount:
IT was a great Celtic. Last year was my first year with season tickets, and every night I was pumped to see how many points IT would score. The fact that for a long time, he was above 29 ppg and within Larry Bird's 29.9 ppg Celtic record, only added to it. His best game was the 53 points vs. the Wizards in game 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtuCH9iLGmk
He has amazing touch on the move within 10 feet of the rim, uses picks and screens well, and creates space on drives probably about as well as any NBA player. He shoots well from 3 and elite from the line.
But if you watch Kyrie's highlights against the defending champ Spurs with Kawhi (a DPOY), Duncan (led NBA in advanced defense metrics in his last NBA season), and Danny Green defending him, the skill level in scoring, shooting off the dribble, and the degree of difficulty and versatility on his scoring drives, he literally exploded off the screen- for 57 points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXxt8hJbelo
Honestly, watching the IT video, they ran some Ray plays and inside-out passes to get him the 3's he made, he got a lot of Horford screens, he has numerous amazing drives creating space and finishing with ease... but he just doesn't pop off the screen like Kyrie does.
Then you consider that Kyrie was 22 when he dropped 57 points on two of the best defenders in modern NBA history (yes, Duncan was still great at 37-38) and the way he did it- it's amazing. He looks closer to Steph Curry in the ways that he scores with the ball than IT.
Last year Kyrie was only 24. Everyone against Kyrie compares his numbers last year, or what he will do this year, to IT last year. But this year we have a secondary scorer in Hayward, plus Al, plus improved Jaylen and Tatum, so that doesn't seem relevant.
Why not compare IT at 24 to Kyrie at 24? Both played with an alpha scorer and usage guy in Lebron and DMC. It was Isaiah's best year before his first all star year, so it's not cherry picking.
IT - 20.3/6.3/2.9 .574 ts%, 85% ft 35% 3pt 20.5 PER 4.7% trb% 32.2% ast% 26.3 usg%
KI - 25.5/5.8/3.2 .580 ts% 90% ft 40% 3pt 23.0 PER 5.0% trb% 29.7% ast% 30.8% usg%
IT - Offensive win shares: 6.4 , defensive (with better team D): 1.3 = 7.7 total win shares
KI - Offensive win shares: 7.4 (second banana), defensive: 1.5 = 8.9 total win shares
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais02.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html
I have high expectations for Kyrie this season. I think he's a major upgrade in talent. So even though the C's outperformed their expectation last year, I expect this year's team to improve.
Ilikesports17:
Not sure I love comparing them at age 24.
That said, I will throw some more stats in here.
D-Wade, in the 4 years before Lebrons arrival(age 25-28): 7.1 assists per game, 38.6 assist %
D-Wade in the 4 years with Lebron: 4.7 assists per game, 25.5 assist %
Kyrie Irving in the 3 years with Lebron: 5.3 assists per game, 27.1 assist %
Who knows what Kyrie can do ages 25-28 without Lebron.
Also, with 5.8 assists per game this year, Kyrie had the second highest apg for a secondary facilitator (Steph and Dray each had ~7 a game).
Finally similar to one of the stats you posted:
ITs pre Boston assist %: 27
ITs Boston assist %: 33
smokeablount:
--- Quote from: Ilikesports17 on September 19, 2017, 09:44:05 PM ---Not sure I love comparing them at age 24.
That said, I will throw some more stats in here.
D-Wade, in the 4 years before Lebrons arrival(age 25-28): 7.1 assists per game, 38.6 assist %
D-Wade in the 4 years with Lebron: 4.7 assists per game, 25.5 assist %
Kyrie Irving in the 3 years with Lebron: 5.3 assists per game, 27.1 assist %
Who knows what Kyrie can do ages 25-28 without Lebron.
Also, with 5.8 assists per game this year, Kyrie had the second highest apg for a secondary facilitator (Steph and Dray each had ~7 a game).
Finally similar to one of the stats you posted:
ITs pre Boston assist %: 27
ITs Boston assist %: 33
--- End quote ---
Re: comparing them at 24, you're 100% correct that it's far from a perfect comparison. I merely brought it up as a counterpoint comp for those comparing Kyrie last year or for the coming year to IT last year. Both comps are flawed but I've seen tons of people comping the latter, but not for age 24.
TP for the great stats that present Kyrie's 5.8 apg last year as actually quite impressive #'s. Also that based on Wade's assists pre-LBJ and IT's jump as a Celtic, Kyrie could potentially jump up to 7+ apg.
If Kyrie puts up 27-7-4 on 47/40/90 % splits with GH here, I'll view that as topping IT last year.
Big333223:
Yeah, comparing the two at age 24 is imperfect but I don't see it as any more problematic than comparing their numbers from last season, when Kyrie was the second option in an offense designed for Lebron and IT was the first option in an offense designed for him.
The other thing I've been seeing, that bugs me, is posters saying that if Kyrie doesn't match IT's numbers from last year then he'll have been a step down. But the alternative would've been to keep IT, who probably would not have matched his own numbers from last year, injury or not. Did anyone really think that IT was going to average 29-6 on historically good efficiency for the next 5 years? Or that he would be able to recreate that season even one more time? I guess a lot of people have looked stupid underestimating Isaiah Thomas through the years so maybe I'm just one more of them but it feels to me like we saw IT's best season last year and we haven't seen what Kyrie is capable of yet.
Roy H.:
--- Quote from: Big333223 on September 21, 2017, 07:25:28 AM ---... when Kyrie was the second option ...
--- End quote ---
Why do people keep saying this? It seems to be the conventional wisdom, but it's not accurate.
Kyrie led the Cavs in shots and usage. He wasn't by any means the second option.
He was 6th in the NBA in field goal attempts per game.
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