Author Topic: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure  (Read 3578 times)

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Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2017, 04:56:02 PM »

Offline Granath

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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?

This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone  to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.

Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2017, 05:06:37 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Yeah none of those teams really likely to offer anything even resembling a large or long contract, so much that talk of a max in the market seems quite far fetched. He would have to be in a situation like Jrue was, in a perfect spot with a team in a pickle.

We could've been in that pickle in 2018, if not for Irving's trade demand.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2017, 05:12:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?

This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone  to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.

Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You're forgetting:

GMs get fired if they lose too much so they get great free agents to get a winning atmosphere going and...

Not every team believes in the tanking for years at a time philosophy that Philadelphia pulled.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2017, 06:29:50 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.

Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season?  What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?

I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier.  Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made.  In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2017, 12:52:05 PM »

Online Moranis

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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?

This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone  to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.

Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players.  You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs.  What point does that serve? 

And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams?  If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money? 

There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons).  Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract.  Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces). 
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Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2017, 01:38:07 PM »

Offline Granath

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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?

This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone  to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.

Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players.  You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs.  What point does that serve? 

And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams?  If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money? 

There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons).  Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract.  Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces).

You just answered your own question. "Why would Thomas go to one of these rebuilding teams?" Because they'd offer him the max!  :laugh:
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2017, 12:05:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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What I am intrigued about is what will happen with Tatum long term, Hayward can't be defensive stopper next to Irving going forward and Tatum won't want to be a power forward for the rest of his career so is he our 6th man for the next 4-5 years?

Hayward can play either SG or SF equally effectively and Tatum probably can as well, to be honest.  He's a pretty solid ball handler and a skilled player - anything he gives up in lateral mobility at the SG spot he'd gain with his size/length (think Joe Johnson / James Posey / Paul Pierce in their 30's - all able to guard three positions despite not being super quick laterally). 

I'm also very confident that Tatum will be able to play the small-ball PF spot no problems once he bulks up in the next 12-24 months.  He's got the height, the length and the frame for it and he's also a skilled post player and a solid rebounder.  Paul Pierce spent a significant amount of time at PF in his last 2-3 seasons and was very effective there.  Tatum isn't as strong, but he's taller, just as athletic (if not more) and just as long/wide.   

All of this is a big part of why I like Tatum so much as a prospect - his combination of physical talent and natural skill give him the potential to become an incredibly versatile player moving forward. 

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2017, 12:22:05 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Quote
If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.

Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season?  What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?

I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier.  Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made.  In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.

- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)

Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.

Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas). 

So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too. 

By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory).  Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2017, 08:36:25 AM »

Online Moranis

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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?

This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone  to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.

Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players.  You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs.  What point does that serve? 

And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams?  If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money? 

There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons).  Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract.  Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces).

You just answered your own question. "Why would Thomas go to one of these rebuilding teams?" Because they'd offer him the max!  :laugh:
But again, why would they?  What exactly does Thomas do for Brooklyn (as an example)?  Thomas isn't some mega star that will draw people in because he isn't going to significantly increase any team's win total.  All giving him the max does for a team like Brooklyn is win 35 games instead of 25 games (if he makes it through the season) and harms the growth of Russell, puts the team in a financial pickle 3 or 4 years down the road, etc.

I listed teams that might make sense for Thomas, but the vast majority of those just aren't going to have cap room for a max contract.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2017, 10:13:14 AM »

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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.

BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2017, 10:31:36 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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I think IT will go to the team that pays him the most money. I think this would be the best move for him. He probably will not being playing basketball into his 40's, so he has a limited time frame to build generational wealth.

I think winning a championship should be the second priority. He can always play for the minimum in his mid 30's (if he's healthy) for a championship team.

And yes, IT will help a rebuilding team win more games. Developing a winning culture is important. I think tanking is a poor strategy that has long-term negative effects. Even if Philly makes the playoffs this year, I think they took the low road to do so. I can't speak for other fans, but I won't forget that they tried to game the system with a non-competitive product to acquire talent. In back to back years, Philly drafted a player #1 that couldn't help their college team win. Winning doesn't seem to be an important factor for that franchise.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2017, 10:33:02 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.

BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer

If so, GM of the year award goes to Danny Ainge.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2017, 11:34:55 AM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.

BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer

If so, GM of the year award goes to Danny Ainge.

I think we'll win 60 and it will.

If he knew about Kyrie's availability before the draft, that means he knew he could choose from between Kyrie, Fultz, and Isaiah for future and present PG. Every GM in Danny's situation would choose Kyrie every time.

Having made that choice, he wound up converting Fultz, Isaiah, Crowder, Zizic, and the Brooklyn pick into Kyrie, Tatum, and the Lakers pick. The picks cancel out. I would totally trade one year of gimpy Isaiah, Crowder, and Zizic for Tatum, who might as well have been the #1 overall pick on Ainge's board.

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Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2017, 04:56:43 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.

Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season?  What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?

I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier.  Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made.  In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.

- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)

Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.

Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas). 

So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too. 

By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory).  Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.
Kyrie's previous best was 22.5, not 19.6.

Re: Brinks truck and Ainge backed in corner and a forced majeure
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2017, 05:19:09 PM »

Offline mctyson

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The idea that IT would not get near a max when JRue holiday did really discredits those on this board who think IT wouldn't get paid.