Author Topic: Tatum is the youngest rookie ever to lead a to 50+ win team in minutes played  (Read 7830 times)

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Offline tazzmaniac

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Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.
How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.
Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.
This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.
I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.
You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?
When did you become we?  Speak for yourself not others.  Personally I think the current NBA eligibility rules are fine as is.  If the NBA wants to change the rules in the future, that's their prerogative but Simmons is playing under the current rules.  To extrapolate NBA rookie eligibility rules to blacks and women voting is just plain silly 

Who uses the terminology "rookie 1st year player"?  You're either a rookie or you are not.  You keep equating being considered a rookie for ROY with their contract year not me.  There is no inconsistency.  Simmons is a rookie and is on the 2nd year of his contract.  He's eligible for ROY and I've got no problem with that.
 

Offline Moranis

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Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.
How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.
Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.
This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.
I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.
You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?
Because it is his 1st year of game action.  He already said that multiple times.  You apparently just can't grasp that concept.  0 minutes is 0 minutes. 

And you keep saying he could have played.  Simmons suffered a Jones Fracture on September 30th and had surgery a few days later.  The healing time can verify from as little to 3 months, but is often much closer to 6 months.  Because it is a foot injury, he couldn't have done much of anything until it was healed.  According to the Sixers, Simmons wasn't fully healed at around 5 months (end of February), and thus couldn't have actually played last season at all.  Additionally, even if that February 23rd scan revealed the foot had fully healed, the Sixers had no incentive to play him that year, especially when Kevin Durant (and others) rushed back from a similar injury only to suffer set backs.  The Sixers were pretty far below .500 and Embiid had already been shut down so they had no real shot at making the playoffs. 

This idea that Simmons sat out because he had a clause in his shoe contract that paid him more money, is just nonsense.  Simmons didn't play because he wasn't fully healthy and the Sixers didn't want him to rush back to help avoid the risk of reinjury (which is significant in Jones fracture situations).
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Offline celticsclay

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Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.
How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.
Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.
This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.
I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.
You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?
Because it is his 1st year of game action.  He already said that multiple times.  You apparently just can't grasp that concept.  0 minutes is 0 minutes. 

And you keep saying he could have played.  Simmons suffered a Jones Fracture on September 30th and had surgery a few days later.  The healing time can verify from as little to 3 months, but is often much closer to 6 months.  Because it is a foot injury, he couldn't have done much of anything until it was healed.  According to the Sixers, Simmons wasn't fully healed at around 5 months (end of February), and thus couldn't have actually played last season at all.  Additionally, even if that February 23rd scan revealed the foot had fully healed, the Sixers had no incentive to play him that year, especially when Kevin Durant (and others) rushed back from a similar injury only to suffer set backs.  The Sixers were pretty far below .500 and Embiid had already been shut down so they had no real shot at making the playoffs. 

This idea that Simmons sat out because he had a clause in his shoe contract that paid him more money, is just nonsense.  Simmons didn't play because he wasn't fully healthy and the Sixers didn't want him to rush back to help avoid the risk of reinjury (which is significant in Jones fracture situations).

I think everyone loves when you express your opinion as though it were fact and called the opposing opinion "nonsense" even though there is no possible way anyone can know the actual facts in the situation.

Many 76ers fans on Liberty Ballers accept that a combination of the 76ers wanting to lose games once they suffered injuries and the fact that Simmons was receiving a massive bonus for winning this award made it mutually beneficial for him to not suit up in the final 6 weeks of the season.

Is is possible that it was 100% because of injury or he suffered some setback that nobody publicly released? Sure..., but it is hardly fact and it is certainly reasonable that other factors including this bonus or Philly wanting to increase lottery chances were also the reason. Acting like it is when nobody knows the real info is honestly really obnoxious.

Offline byennie

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I think everyone loves when you express your opinion as though it were fact and called the opposing opinion "nonsense" even though there is no possible way anyone can know the actual facts in the situation.

Many 76ers fans on Liberty Ballers accept that a combination of the 76ers wanting to lose games once they suffered injuries and the fact that Simmons was receiving a massive bonus for winning this award made it mutually beneficial for him to not suit up in the final 6 weeks of the season.

Is is possible that it was 100% because of injury or he suffered some setback that nobody publicly released? Sure..., but it is hardly fact and it is certainly reasonable that other factors including this bonus or Philly wanting to increase lottery chances were also the reason. Acting like it is when nobody knows the real info is honestly really obnoxious.

So basically you're mad that Simmons "cheated" the rookie system, based on a conspiracy theory that some Philly fans agree with, therefore we should change the definition of rookie to avoid this sort of thing?

I mean, that's theoretically possible but I don't think it's crazy to treat everything the team, players and doctors have said as true in absence of any real evidence to the contrary.

Offline celticsclay

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I think everyone loves when you express your opinion as though it were fact and called the opposing opinion "nonsense" even though there is no possible way anyone can know the actual facts in the situation.

Many 76ers fans on Liberty Ballers accept that a combination of the 76ers wanting to lose games once they suffered injuries and the fact that Simmons was receiving a massive bonus for winning this award made it mutually beneficial for him to not suit up in the final 6 weeks of the season.

Is is possible that it was 100% because of injury or he suffered some setback that nobody publicly released? Sure..., but it is hardly fact and it is certainly reasonable that other factors including this bonus or Philly wanting to increase lottery chances were also the reason. Acting like it is when nobody knows the real info is honestly really obnoxious.

So basically you're mad that Simmons "cheated" the rookie system, based on a conspiracy theory that some Philly fans agree with, therefore we should change the definition of rookie to avoid this sort of thing?

I mean, that's theoretically possible but I don't think it's crazy to treat everything the team, players and doctors have said as true in absence of any real evidence to the contrary.

That is not what I said at all. Did you quote the wrong post?

Offline smokeablount

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Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.
How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.
Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.
This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.
I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.
You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?
When did you become we?  Speak for yourself not others.  Personally I think the current NBA eligibility rules are fine as is.  If the NBA wants to change the rules in the future, that's their prerogative but Simmons is playing under the current rules.  To extrapolate NBA rookie eligibility rules to blacks and women voting is just plain silly 

Who uses the terminology "rookie 1st year player"?  You're either a rookie or you are not.  You keep equating being considered a rookie for ROY with their contract year not me.  There is no inconsistency.  Simmons is a rookie and is on the 2nd year of his contract.  He's eligible for ROY and I've got no problem with that.
 

You're a good tap dancer, and good at picking the weakest piece of a detailed post to reply to, but I guess you somehow aren't capable of answering a single question out of the 4-5 direct questions I've now asked you.  Not sure if you know you don't have any good answers, or what the issue is with you.

You say a player's contract and 'being considered a rookie for ROY' aren't equated.  You know what you're not saying?  You're not saying that a player's contract and 'being considered a rookie' PERIOD aren't equated, you're saying contract and 'being considered a rookie for ROY'.  You have deliberately specified that, and done so twice. 

So, again, here is a question.  Just one, and I've simplified it for you.  Either answer it or don't expect another reply from me, you can get an education somewhere else. 

Why does it make sense that 'being considered a rookie' and 'being considered a rookie for ROY' are different things? 

I'll wait.
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Offline Donoghus

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Let's not challenge the mental capacity of other posters, shall we?There's a way to discuss things without resorting to insults


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Offline smokeablount

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Let's not challenge the mental capacity of other posters, shall we?There's a way to discuss things without resorting to insults

I assume this is for me, so I apologize, but I don't like being told to 'speak for myself' over the internet when there are 4-5 posters with the same basic premise as my posts.  Not sure why me simply saying 'we understand the rules' and using 2 adjectives other posters with similar views used is out of line to Tazz, but I apologize for any insults and for derailing what's a great topic.
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Offline byennie

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I think everyone loves when you express your opinion as though it were fact and called the opposing opinion "nonsense" even though there is no possible way anyone can know the actual facts in the situation.

Many 76ers fans on Liberty Ballers accept that a combination of the 76ers wanting to lose games once they suffered injuries and the fact that Simmons was receiving a massive bonus for winning this award made it mutually beneficial for him to not suit up in the final 6 weeks of the season.

Is is possible that it was 100% because of injury or he suffered some setback that nobody publicly released? Sure..., but it is hardly fact and it is certainly reasonable that other factors including this bonus or Philly wanting to increase lottery chances were also the reason. Acting like it is when nobody knows the real info is honestly really obnoxious.

So basically you're mad that Simmons "cheated" the rookie system, based on a conspiracy theory that some Philly fans agree with, therefore we should change the definition of rookie to avoid this sort of thing?

I mean, that's theoretically possible but I don't think it's crazy to treat everything the team, players and doctors have said as true in absence of any real evidence to the contrary.

That is not what I said at all. Did you quote the wrong post?

I may have merged your comments re: Philly conspiracy with the previous poster. My bad. Right quote, misread context.

Offline tazzmaniac

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Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.
How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.
Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.
This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.
I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.
You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?
When did you become we?  Speak for yourself not others.  Personally I think the current NBA eligibility rules are fine as is.  If the NBA wants to change the rules in the future, that's their prerogative but Simmons is playing under the current rules.  To extrapolate NBA rookie eligibility rules to blacks and women voting is just plain silly 

Who uses the terminology "rookie 1st year player"?  You're either a rookie or you are not.  You keep equating being considered a rookie for ROY with their contract year not me.  There is no inconsistency.  Simmons is a rookie and is on the 2nd year of his contract.  He's eligible for ROY and I've got no problem with that.
 

You're a good tap dancer, and good at picking the weakest piece of a detailed post to reply to, but I guess you somehow aren't capable of answering a single question out of the 4-5 direct questions I've now asked you.  Not sure if you know you don't have any good answers, or what the issue is with you.

You say a player's contract and 'being considered a rookie for ROY' aren't equated.  You know what you're not saying?  You're not saying that a player's contract and 'being considered a rookie' PERIOD aren't equated, you're saying contract and 'being considered a rookie for ROY'.  You have deliberately specified that, and done so twice. 

So, again, here is a question.  Just one, and I've simplified it for you.  Either answer it or don't expect another reply from me, you can get an education somewhere else. 

Why does it make sense that 'being considered a rookie' and 'being considered a rookie for ROY' are different things? 

I'll wait.
Where did I say they were different?  Being a rookie is determined by actual playing time not contract year and if you are a rookie you are eligible for ROY. 

Mirotic stayed in Europe for 3 years so he could get a non-rookie scale contract.  Even so his first season playing in the NBA, he was a rookie and eligible for ROY.     

As for your detailed post, it went off in the weeds big time.  Lebron getting foul calls and blacks and women getting voting rights having nothing to do with NBA rookie eligibility and ROY.   I've been clear in my responses.  I like the current NBA rookie eligibility rule and if I were to change it I'd make it more like the MLB rule that actually allows a small amount of prior play. 

Offline SparzWizard

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If only Tatum can become the youngest rookie to record a triple double in the NBA...

I guess the #1 and #2 picks of 2017 are #1 and #2 picks for a reason...to be the youngest stars in NBA history able to record their first triple doubles.  :-\

But some say triple doubles are overrated!


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Offline Rondo9

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If only Tatum can become the youngest rookie to record a triple double in the NBA...

I guess the #1 and #2 picks of 2017 are #1 and #2 picks for a reason...to be the youngest stars in NBA history able to record their first triple doubles.  :-\

But some say triple doubles are overrated!

Sssssesssh He had an excellent year and shows very good promise. And he’s better than Fultz.

Offline GreenEnvy

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I don’t understand why everyone is getting so riled up over eligibility.

Nobody made a fuss when Blake won it, did they?


I mean in baseball you can have like 100 AB’s and come back the next season and win a RotY award.

Mitchell is certainly deserving but Simmons will win it.
CELTICS 2024

Offline SparzWizard

  • JoJo White
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If only Tatum can become the youngest rookie to record a triple double in the NBA...

I guess the #1 and #2 picks of 2017 are #1 and #2 picks for a reason...to be the youngest stars in NBA history able to record their first triple doubles.  :-\

But some say triple doubles are overrated!

Sssssesssh He had an excellent year and shows very good promise. And he’s better than Fultz.

Was just messin'  ;D I like Tatum better than Fultz and Lonzo Ball. His Year 2 production will be fun.


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)