Author Topic: Smart ranked #65 in the League  (Read 15028 times)

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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2017, 07:27:46 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2017, 07:38:46 PM »

Offline Androslav

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
Could have?
Bill Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Pippen and Jordan come to mind. Kawhi perhaps. In 2 of the 100 perfect worlds Marcus could do it.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2017, 08:13:55 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
That’s a testament to how great of a situation Draymond is in though. If I had Curry, Thompson, and Durant to pass to I’d probably drop 7 assists a game. I mean that’s 3 of the best shooters in history. So to answer your question of guys who could have won DPOY and led the best team in the league in assists, would basically be every legit DPOY candidate who had just solid playmaking ability.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2017, 08:32:43 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the league. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2017, 12:15:33 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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For the record, SI did their top 100 and Smart was not ranked.
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/12/top-100-nba-players-2018-dwyane-wade-dirk-nowitzki-dwight-howard

SI's rankings make a lot more sense overall.  The Celtics had 3 players ranked all in the top 30.

Horford was 30
Irving was 21
Hayward was 16

Now that's more like it! :laugh:

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2017, 11:53:21 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the league. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2017, 12:43:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the league. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.
Green is not that type of player
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2017, 12:49:28 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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Why do I have literally zero interest in Chris Paul?

The guy is a human clinic, but I'd probably go with the myopic ginger kid before him in a pickup game..

AND there is literally no way in any dimension ever, you can or should compare him with Anthony Davis.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2017, 01:10:07 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the league. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.
Green is not that type of player
Says you. I say differently. Will just have to agree to disagree

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2017, 02:52:13 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the leag 8)ue. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.

Outside of hitting open threes, Green isn't a great offensive player. In fact, he's a downright terrible one.

For instance, the only starter who had a lower FG% on drives was Luke Babbit. Green shot 26.1% while driving to the hoop.

Green ranked in the bottom 5.4% of all players on iso plays, averaging an anemic .44 points per possession.

He ranked in the bottom 9.5% in points per possession on post ups.

He was in the bottom 15.1% as the pick and roll finisher.

Heck, he's even below average (46.8th percentile) on spot ups.

Green is a great defender and passer. If he was a team's #1 scorer, that team would struggle to win 10 games.


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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2017, 04:07:02 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
Could have?
Bill Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Pippen and Jordan come to mind. Kawhi perhaps. In 2 of the 100 perfect worlds Marcus could do it.
I would knock Kawhi off the list. Only once has he averaged more than 2.6 apg and had a career high of just 3.5 this season. Otherwise, that's pretty good company for Green to be in.

EDIT: Also, it's worth noting that none of those guys actually did what Draymond just did.

That’s a testament to how great of a situation Draymond is in though. If I had Curry, Thompson, and Durant to pass to I’d probably drop 7 assists a game. I mean that’s 3 of the best shooters in history. So to answer your question of guys who could have won DPOY and led the best team in the league in assists, would basically be every legit DPOY candidate who had just solid playmaking ability.
There was a video going around twitter a while ago that showed all the plays where Draymond was on the floor without any of those other guys. He was running the show. He was effectively playing pg on offense and protecting the rim on defense. He's not just a product of the greats he plays with, he's a product of his own amazing versatility and work.

Also, your logic doesn't make any sense. Curry has Thompson and Durant, Durant has Curry and Thompson. If it's so easy to rack up assists with these guys on your team why are the Warriors putting the ball in Draymond's hands so much? The answer is because he's the best playmaker on the team.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 04:16:30 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2017, 05:02:52 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
Could have?
Bill Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Pippen and Jordan come to mind. Kawhi perhaps. In 2 of the 100 perfect worlds Marcus could do it.
I would knock Kawhi off the list. Only once has he averaged more than 2.6 apg and had a career high of just 3.5 this season. Otherwise, that's pretty good company for Green to be in.

EDIT: Also, it's worth noting that none of those guys actually did what Draymond just did.

That’s a testament to how great of a situation Draymond is in though. If I had Curry, Thompson, and Durant to pass to I’d probably drop 7 assists a game. I mean that’s 3 of the best shooters in history. So to answer your question of guys who could have won DPOY and led the best team in the league in assists, would basically be every legit DPOY candidate who had just solid playmaking ability.
There was a video going around twitter a while ago that showed all the plays where Draymond was on the floor without any of those other guys. He was running the show. He was effectively playing pg on offense and protecting the rim on defense. He's not just a product of the greats he plays with, he's a product of his own amazing versatility and work.

Also, your logic doesn't make any sense. Curry has Thompson and Durant, Durant has Curry and Thompson. If it's so easy to rack up assists with these guys on your team why are the Warriors putting the ball in Draymond's hands so much? The answer is because he's the best playmaker on the team.
First off, the ball is not in Draymond’s hands that much. His usage is 16%, 8th highest on the team behind Curry, Thompson, Durant and other bench guys. So the Warriors clearly don’t think he’s the best playmaker, otherwise he would have the ball more.

And yes my logic does make sense. Curry has Klay and KD, but Curry can’t get an assist to Curry. Draymond has 3 of the best shooters of all time to pass to. The others have 2.

And also, it’s easier to get assists when you’re not looking to score for yourself. Look at the numbers Roy posted above. Draymond is a dreadful scorer. So when he has the ball and he has the choice between trying to score himself, or passing to one of 3 amazing shooters, you already know he’s going to be looking to pass.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2017, 10:08:05 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the leag 8)ue. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.

Outside of hitting open threes, Green isn't a great offensive player. In fact, he's a downright terrible one.

For instance, the only starter who had a lower FG% on drives was Luke Babbit. Green shot 26.1% while driving to the hoop.

Green ranked in the bottom 5.4% of all players on iso plays, averaging an anemic .44 points per possession.

He ranked in the bottom 9.5% in points per possession on post ups.

He was in the bottom 15.1% as the pick and roll finisher.

Heck, he's even below average (46.8th percentile) on spot ups.

Green is a great defender and passer. If he was a team's #1 scorer, that team would struggle to win 10 games.
I was too lazy to do this, and didn't know it would work out quite this way statistically, but watching Green this is the impression I got.  He isn't a guy that can be an offensive #1 player. 
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2017, 10:24:01 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?

Draymond Green is certainly a fantastic player, but he might very well be the most overrated player in the leag 8)ue. There is no way Green has any business being ranked in the top 15.

The top 15 players should be guys you can count on to be your team's best player.   No team that has Green as their best player is getting anywhere, he's not that type of player. Green is the ultimate "glue guy", and that's great, but he can't lead a team so he can't be considered a top 15 player.
I disagree completely. I think if Green was ever made the number 1 scoring option on a team he would thrive in that role. Add to that his defensive versatility and prowess, his playmaking ability and his rebounding and I think he could easily be an alpha, #1 guy on 2/3s of the teams in the NBA. The players he is playing with are holding him back from being a 25/9/7 type of player.

Outside of hitting open threes, Green isn't a great offensive player. In fact, he's a downright terrible one.

For instance, the only starter who had a lower FG% on drives was Luke Babbit. Green shot 26.1% while driving to the hoop.

Green ranked in the bottom 5.4% of all players on iso plays, averaging an anemic .44 points per possession.

He ranked in the bottom 9.5% in points per possession on post ups.

He was in the bottom 15.1% as the pick and roll finisher.

Heck, he's even below average (46.8th percentile) on spot ups.

Green is a great defender and passer. If he was a team's #1 scorer, that team would struggle to win 10 games.
I was too lazy to do this, and didn't know it would work out quite this way statistically, but watching Green this is the impression I got.  He isn't a guy that can be an offensive #1 player.

It's pretty remarkable. Is there another starter in the league who falls into the bottom 15% league wide on drives, isolation, pick-and-roll, and Post-ups?

And yet, he's rightly seen as a great player because he plays to his strengths. He's almost Rodman-esque in that way.


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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2017, 10:35:13 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Draymond is incredible. How many other players in the history of the game could've led the best team in the league in assists and won a defensive player of the year?
Could have?
Bill Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Pippen and Jordan come to mind. Kawhi perhaps. In 2 of the 100 perfect worlds Marcus could do it.
I would knock Kawhi off the list. Only once has he averaged more than 2.6 apg and had a career high of just 3.5 this season. Otherwise, that's pretty good company for Green to be in.

EDIT: Also, it's worth noting that none of those guys actually did what Draymond just did.
Well they didn't have the DPOY award until the 82/83 season and the award has most often been given to shot blocking and rebounding big men.  Those players don't tend to be great passers. 

That said, Gary Payton did win DPOY and lead his team in assists.  The Sonics also won 64 games that year, of course that was the year the Bulls won 72.  And of course unlike Green, Payton was actually his team's best player and the player most responsible for those 64 wins (11.5 WS to be exact).  Green this past season was 3rd on the 67 win Warriors with just 8.2 WS.  Durant in just 62 games had WS of 12 and Curry led the way with 12.6. 

Going back to the 60's, Chamberlain led the league in assists one year and if they had the award and not for Russell, Chamberlain would have won multiple DPOY awards.  He also would have led his team in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots in addition to assists.  Russell was likely never going to have enough assists to pass up guys like Cousy, KC Jones, and Hondo, but he was certainly capable of getting those assist numbers.  I'm sure there are players in the 70's that also could have done it.  Moncrief nearly did in the 80's (though the Bucks being the best team would have been a stretch).  Artest had that sort of talent before the Malice.  Jordan obviously won a DPOY and led his team in assists and was the best player on multiple teams that were the league's best team.  He just never did all 3 in the same season. 

Most of the guys were their teams best player, not a glorified role player like Green, which is why this really is a meaningless debate.
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