Author Topic: Smart ranked #65 in the League  (Read 4927 times)

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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2017, 01:19:13 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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ESPN ranked crowder higher than Horford...

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Here's the reasoning.

It is one of the most absurd things I have ever read.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2017, 01:27:27 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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This thing is a master's class in how to misuse statistics to support ridiculous player comparisons:

Quote
Rubio is a viable tip of the spear on both ends of the floor, as he's one of just three point guards in NBA history with career averages of eight assists and two steals per game, alongside Chris Paul and John Stockton.

Quote
Myles Turner is one of just five players in history to average 14 points, seven rebounds and two blocks per game by the age of 20. The others: Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Quote
[Embiid] shot better from 3-point range than Reggie Miller did as a rookie...

Quote
On a per-possession basis, Batum has filled it up in each of his two seasons in Charlotte, as he's one of just three players to average at least 20 points, eight rebounds and eight assists per 100 possessions in each of the last two seasons. The others? LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Quote
The only players in NBA history to average at least 20 points per game in each of their first 15 seasons are Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a club Carmelo Anthony could join in 2017-18.

Quote
Only four players in NBA history -- LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O'Neal and Kyrie Irving -- averaged more points as a 20-year-old than Devin Booker did last season as he pumped in 22.1 points per game.

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Someone is getting paid to write this stuff. Think about that for a minute.



Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2017, 01:37:29 PM »

Online saltlover

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This thing is a master's class in how to misuse statistics to support ridiculous player comparisons:

Quote
Rubio is a viable tip of the spear on both ends of the floor, as he's one of just three point guards in NBA history with career averages of eight assists and two steals per game, alongside Chris Paul and John Stockton.

Quote
Myles Turner is one of just five players in history to average 14 points, seven rebounds and two blocks per game by the age of 20. The others: Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Quote
[Embiid] shot better from 3-point range than Reggie Miller did as a rookie...

Quote
On a per-possession basis, Batum has filled it up in each of his two seasons in Charlotte, as he's one of just three players to average at least 20 points, eight rebounds and eight assists per 100 possessions in each of the last two seasons. The others? LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Quote
The only players in NBA history to average at least 20 points per game in each of their first 15 seasons are Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a club Carmelo Anthony could join in 2017-18.

Quote
Only four players in NBA history -- LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O'Neal and Kyrie Irving -- averaged more points as a 20-year-old than Devin Booker did last season as he pumped in 22.1 points per game.

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Someone is getting paid to write this stuff. Think about that for a minute.

It's really talented writing when you think about it.  Misinformative, but well done.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2017, 01:43:55 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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This thing is a master's class in how to misuse statistics to support ridiculous player comparisons:

Quote
Rubio is a viable tip of the spear on both ends of the floor, as he's one of just three point guards in NBA history with career averages of eight assists and two steals per game, alongside Chris Paul and John Stockton.

Quote
Myles Turner is one of just five players in history to average 14 points, seven rebounds and two blocks per game by the age of 20. The others: Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Quote
[Embiid] shot better from 3-point range than Reggie Miller did as a rookie...

Quote
On a per-possession basis, Batum has filled it up in each of his two seasons in Charlotte, as he's one of just three players to average at least 20 points, eight rebounds and eight assists per 100 possessions in each of the last two seasons. The others? LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Quote
The only players in NBA history to average at least 20 points per game in each of their first 15 seasons are Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a club Carmelo Anthony could join in 2017-18.

Quote
Only four players in NBA history -- LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O'Neal and Kyrie Irving -- averaged more points as a 20-year-old than Devin Booker did last season as he pumped in 22.1 points per game.

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Someone is getting paid to write this stuff. Think about that for a minute.

It's really talented writing when you think about it.  Misinformative, but well done.

Oh no it isn't. All this requires is typing numbers into "NBA Player Season Finder" on basketball-reference.com.

It is the sports equivalent of a bad term paper written by someone who has no command of the English language and went crazy with the Microsoft Word "thesaurus" feature.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2017, 04:15:19 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This thing is a master's class in how to misuse statistics to support ridiculous player comparisons:

Quote
Rubio is a viable tip of the spear on both ends of the floor, as he's one of just three point guards in NBA history with career averages of eight assists and two steals per game, alongside Chris Paul and John Stockton.

Quote
Myles Turner is one of just five players in history to average 14 points, seven rebounds and two blocks per game by the age of 20. The others: Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Quote
[Embiid] shot better from 3-point range than Reggie Miller did as a rookie...

Quote
On a per-possession basis, Batum has filled it up in each of his two seasons in Charlotte, as he's one of just three players to average at least 20 points, eight rebounds and eight assists per 100 possessions in each of the last two seasons. The others? LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Quote
The only players in NBA history to average at least 20 points per game in each of their first 15 seasons are Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a club Carmelo Anthony could join in 2017-18.

Quote
Only four players in NBA history -- LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O'Neal and Kyrie Irving -- averaged more points as a 20-year-old than Devin Booker did last season as he pumped in 22.1 points per game.

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Someone is getting paid to write this stuff. Think about that for a minute.

It's really talented writing when you think about it.  Misinformative, but well done.

Oh no it isn't. All this requires is typing numbers into "NBA Player Season Finder" on basketball-reference.com.

It is the sports equivalent of a bad term paper written by someone who has no command of the English language and went crazy with the Microsoft Word "thesaurus" feature.

Yeah but imagine you have to write a few hundred of these blurbs in a couple weeks along with a bunch of other duties, and you're not getting paid much (or at all).

I think the mistake is treating this like an intellectual exercise and not just "here's some sorta interesting factoids and a list to talk a bunch about and build anticipation while you wait for the season to arrive"

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2017, 05:42:24 PM »

Offline loco_91

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This thing is a master's class in how to misuse statistics to support ridiculous player comparisons:

Quote
Rubio is a viable tip of the spear on both ends of the floor, as he's one of just three point guards in NBA history with career averages of eight assists and two steals per game, alongside Chris Paul and John Stockton.

Quote
Myles Turner is one of just five players in history to average 14 points, seven rebounds and two blocks per game by the age of 20. The others: Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Quote
[Embiid] shot better from 3-point range than Reggie Miller did as a rookie...

Quote
On a per-possession basis, Batum has filled it up in each of his two seasons in Charlotte, as he's one of just three players to average at least 20 points, eight rebounds and eight assists per 100 possessions in each of the last two seasons. The others? LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Quote
The only players in NBA history to average at least 20 points per game in each of their first 15 seasons are Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a club Carmelo Anthony could join in 2017-18.

Quote
Only four players in NBA history -- LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O'Neal and Kyrie Irving -- averaged more points as a 20-year-old than Devin Booker did last season as he pumped in 22.1 points per game.

Quote
There were three small forwards who ranked inside the top 15 at the position in both offensive and defensive RPM. The Cavaliers now have two of them, with Jae Crowder joining LeBron James. (The other is Milwaukee's Giannis Antetokounmpo.)

Someone is getting paid to write this stuff. Think about that for a minute.

 ESPN :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2017, 05:55:25 PM »

Online Dino Pitino

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To be fair to ESPN, when it's [your player] who's the subject of the inane player comparison trivia, it always seems a little more interesting. Seeing them one after another does accentuate the inanity, though.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2017, 06:06:10 PM »

Offline greece666

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@fairweatherfan

I disagree. IMO this is a serious issue.

One issue is what Boris Badenov already talked about. This is thoughtless use of data without context.

Another is that they often recycle stuff posted on reddit or elsewhere from fans without giving credit to the people who originally posted them. A good number of the tweets and fan facts you see from 'reputable' sources is the uncredited work of other ppl.

The third is that they 'adapt' the data to fit a narrative.  A recent example: there are five players who averaged 20ppg or more in every season they played in the NBA: MJ, LBJ, KD, Melo and Bob Petitt. This was posted a couple of days ago by  /u/Morezingis on reddit.



Shortly afterwards, this made its way to "Basketball Forever". Petitt however was omitted. They wrote instead "since 1965" (the year of Petitt's retirement).





This post was in its turn recycled by BR which did not even bother to write "since 1965" they just put an asterisk.



For the full story: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zwysl/bob_petitt_is_being_left_out_of_posts_about/

EDIT: added the images
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:47:38 PM by greece666 »

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2017, 06:20:18 PM »

Offline Big333223

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ESPN ranked crowder higher than Horford...
lol. Yup.

Horford at 40, Demar Derozan at 39, and Crowder at 38. What do you think Toronto would do if Cleveland called up and offered Crowder for Derozan, straight up? What a joke.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2017, 08:40:36 AM »

Offline Moranis

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@fairweatherfan

I disagree. IMO this is a serious issue.

One issue is what Boris Badenov already talked about. This is thoughtless use of data without context.

Another is that they often recycle stuff posted on reddit or elsewhere from fans without giving credit to the people who originally posted them. A good number of the tweets and fan facts you see from 'reputable' sources is the uncredited work of other ppl.

The third is that they 'adapt' the data to fit a narrative.  A recent example: there are five players who averaged 20ppg or more in every season they played in the NBA: MJ, LBJ, KD, Melo and Bob Petitt. This was posted a couple of days ago by  /u/Morezingis on reddit.



Shortly afterwards, this made its way to "Basketball Forever". Petitt however was omitted. They wrote instead "since 1965" (the year of Petitt's retirement).





This post was in its turn recycled by BR which did not even bother to write "since 1965" they just put an asterisk.



For the full story: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zwysl/bob_petitt_is_being_left_out_of_posts_about/

EDIT: added the images
But the data is not how they came up with the rankings.  The rankings are based on what their experts think (some of them may use data, some of them may not).  They used the data after the fact to support the rankings that the experts came up with.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »

Online jpotter33

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ESPN ranked crowder higher than Horford...
lol. Yup.

Horford at 40, Demar Derozan at 39, and Crowder at 38. What do you think Toronto would do if Cleveland called up and offered Crowder for Derozan, straight up? What a joke.

Crowder was so underrated that he became incredibly overrated.

While I think he's still a bit overrated on this blog by some, most of us on here have a much better perspective of Crowder than the rest of the league due to watching him extensively the last two and a half years.

The rest of the league greatly exaggerates how good Crowder was, especially last year.
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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2017, 09:28:04 AM »

Offline bdm860

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@fairweatherfan

I disagree. IMO this is a serious issue.

One issue is what Boris Badenov already talked about. This is thoughtless use of data without context.

Another is that they often recycle stuff posted on reddit or elsewhere from fans without giving credit to the people who originally posted them. A good number of the tweets and fan facts you see from 'reputable' sources is the uncredited work of other ppl.

The third is that they 'adapt' the data to fit a narrative.  A recent example: there are five players who averaged 20ppg or more in every season they played in the NBA: MJ, LBJ, KD, Melo and Bob Petitt. This was posted a couple of days ago by  /u/Morezingis on reddit.



Shortly afterwards, this made its way to "Basketball Forever". Petitt however was omitted. They wrote instead "since 1965" (the year of Petitt's retirement).





This post was in its turn recycled by BR which did not even bother to write "since 1965" they just put an asterisk.



For the full story: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zwysl/bob_petitt_is_being_left_out_of_posts_about/

EDIT: added the images

I think the funny thing is, Bleacher Report who stole content from Basketball Forever who stole the content from Reddit, was the only one to actually get it right.

The reddit post is wrong as it excludes Alex Groza and Joel Embiid.

Basketball Forever tweet is wrong because they also exclude Embiid.

And then Bleacher Report comes along and is the only one to put the appropriate qualifiers in their tweet, making their's the only one that's 100% accurate.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 09:39:52 AM by bdm860 »

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Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2017, 10:03:33 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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@fairweatherfan

I disagree. IMO this is a serious issue.

One issue is what Boris Badenov already talked about. This is thoughtless use of data without context.

Another is that they often recycle stuff posted on reddit or elsewhere from fans without giving credit to the people who originally posted them. A good number of the tweets and fan facts you see from 'reputable' sources is the uncredited work of other ppl.

The third is that they 'adapt' the data to fit a narrative.  A recent example: there are five players who averaged 20ppg or more in every season they played in the NBA: MJ, LBJ, KD, Melo and Bob Petitt. This was posted a couple of days ago by  /u/Morezingis on reddit.

Shortly afterwards, this made its way to "Basketball Forever". Petitt however was omitted. They wrote instead "since 1965" (the year of Petitt's retirement).

This post was in its turn recycled by BR which did not even bother to write "since 1965" they just put an asterisk.


For the full story: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zwysl/bob_petitt_is_being_left_out_of_posts_about/


Cut the pics out to trim the space a bit.

I think misuse of data is a major problem, but only in contexts that matter. I don't think ranking sports players matters, so I have a hard time taking anything about it very seriously. The possible intellectual property theft may be an issue for the people creating it but that's awfully hard to prove bc the source of those stats is publicly available.


I am kinda bummed about the exclusion of Pettit though - he's a sort of old-timey binky for me because he seems to be the most forgotten great in league history.

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2017, 12:10:47 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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I'm surprised to see Smart in the top 75.  He is an amazing defender but the rest of his game needs a lot of work, in particular his offense and shot selection.  Big question, answer honestly, will Marcus Smart EVER shoot over 40% from the field in his career?

Re: Smart ranked #65 in the League
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2017, 12:23:03 PM »

Offline Moranis

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@fairweatherfan

I disagree. IMO this is a serious issue.

One issue is what Boris Badenov already talked about. This is thoughtless use of data without context.

Another is that they often recycle stuff posted on reddit or elsewhere from fans without giving credit to the people who originally posted them. A good number of the tweets and fan facts you see from 'reputable' sources is the uncredited work of other ppl.

The third is that they 'adapt' the data to fit a narrative.  A recent example: there are five players who averaged 20ppg or more in every season they played in the NBA: MJ, LBJ, KD, Melo and Bob Petitt. This was posted a couple of days ago by  /u/Morezingis on reddit.

Shortly afterwards, this made its way to "Basketball Forever". Petitt however was omitted. They wrote instead "since 1965" (the year of Petitt's retirement).

This post was in its turn recycled by BR which did not even bother to write "since 1965" they just put an asterisk.


For the full story: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zwysl/bob_petitt_is_being_left_out_of_posts_about/


Cut the pics out to trim the space a bit.

I think misuse of data is a major problem, but only in contexts that matter. I don't think ranking sports players matters, so I have a hard time taking anything about it very seriously. The possible intellectual property theft may be an issue for the people creating it but that's awfully hard to prove bc the source of those stats is publicly available.


I am kinda bummed about the exclusion of Pettit though - he's a sort of old-timey binky for me because he seems to be the most forgotten great in league history.
They didn't misuse data though as the ranking isn't based on data, it is based on their experts opinions.  The little snippets are just interesting things that help support the ranking.
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