Author Topic: We are actually a better defensive team!!!  (Read 1486 times)

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Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2017, 10:34:33 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.

I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.

Well we did give up Kelly Olynyk (4.8 fouls per 36) and Tyler Zeller (4.2 fouls per 36).  But then we picked up Baynes (5.1 fouls per 36).

We also lost horrible defensive PG in Isaiah Thomas, but the picked up horrible defensive PG Kyrie Irving. 

Umm...  :-\

lol

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 05:19:48 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Said no one ever :laugh:.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2017, 06:29:11 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Well we did give up Kelly Olynyk (4.8 fouls per 36) and Tyler Zeller (4.2 fouls per 36).  But then we picked up Baynes (5.1 fouls per 36).

Baynes looks strong enough for those fouls to have some lasting power in terms of game effect.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 06:45:55 AM »

Offline chambers

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We won the bulls series by destroying Lopez in the high pick and roll...dragging him away from the basket out to the perimeter.

We won't be better this year bu bwe won't be as bad as people are making it out to be.

Brad Stevens gets his guys to buy in on D.
Jaylen Brown, Hayward and Smart will be key contributors on D.
Semih will be a beast too.

Come playoffs our D should be solid. In 2 summers from now our D will be awesome.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2017, 09:17:24 AM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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Here is what an offensive talent like Kyrie Irving did to your super duper defensive team full of all nba defensive gurus last year  :

https://youtu.be/nmVIGXp2GYY

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2017, 12:20:47 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?

Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.

The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death.   The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594.   And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.

Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went.  So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable.  When they fired blanks, the team sputtered.   I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.

I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him.  But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points).  Was he not supposed to guard him?  Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2017, 12:41:12 PM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?

Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.

The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death.   The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594.   And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.

Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went.  So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable.  When they fired blanks, the team sputtered.   I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.

I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him.  But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points).  Was he not supposed to guard him?  Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2017, 12:54:46 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?

Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.

The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death.   The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594.   And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.

Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went.  So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable.  When they fired blanks, the team sputtered.   I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.

I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him.  But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points).  Was he not supposed to guard him?  Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!

Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it.  It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots.   In those first two games, guys did not make shots.  In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2017, 01:02:37 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?

Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.

The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death.   The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594.   And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.

Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went.  So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable.  When they fired blanks, the team sputtered.   I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.

I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him.  But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points).  Was he not supposed to guard him?  Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!

Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it.  It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots.   In those first two games, guys did not make shots.  In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
I think that's a big part of it but what I think also played a big part was that without Rondo running the offense (and basically being Playoff Rondo doing a lot of everything else on the court), the Chicago offense didn't run as well.  i think the reduced effectiveness of Chicago's offense helped ease the defensive burden on the other C's players which in turn helped their offensive efforts a bit.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2017, 02:01:42 PM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?

Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.

The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death.   The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594.   And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.

Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went.  So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable.  When they fired blanks, the team sputtered.   I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.

I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him.  But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points).  Was he not supposed to guard him?  Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!

Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it.  It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots.   In those first two games, guys did not make shots.  In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
And something helped them get a better chance to make that shot and it's called better spacing for better dribble penetration and easier looks on the kick outs...

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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No, I responded to your assertion that we were down 0-2 with AB shutting down Butler because that wasn't how it went down. AB didn't take him until game 3. AB was allowed to do his thing because IT4 wasn't out there getting our team destroyed by RR, they had guys that we could hide him on (barely).

This is not my point!! My point is our team last year, full of your so called GREAT DEFENDERS we can't survive without in Bradley and Crowder, were getting swept by the 8th seed in the first round!!! So much for "we are losing our great defenders, we are doom", where were they when we were getting our ass kicked at home by the Bulls??? That last year team needed 1) a rondo injury AND/OR 2) an OFFENSIVE adjustment to be able to come back and win... So as much as I like Bradley and Crowder, we are not doom with them leaving!! We actually might be better defensively with this current crew! That's MY POINT.
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I already said I wasn't worried about this defense, I already know most of the new guys are good defenders.
Good!! then we agree on this at least!!
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Then you asked if I wanted more iso scores over defenders and I said that they needed to do both, so no I don't want more guys who can score but stress out our D even more. That's why I said Kyrie is the only guy known to be like that and even DA said he has to be better. I brought up PHX (not Nash, he was the reference to specify which PHX iteration) because they had all the scoring you could ask for but they didn't have the other end when they need it and you were the one saying scoring is the defense.
I was trying to show you that great offense helps you defensively as well!
And if I go along your argument that phoenix team with no defense whatsoever should have been kicked out in the first round given they were defenseless and defense is crucial in the playoff!! But guess what, they made it to the WCF because their great offense did help their poor defense! Of course that goes to a certain extend, but our team has a lot of good defenders, long, athletic that will make us great offensively and good defensively (at least better than last year!)

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2017, 02:40:34 PM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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I don't see how our low post defense is better. Al is Al. Amir is a better low post defender than Morris. And Baynes and KO are about the same with me giving the edge to KO.  Our rebounding on the defensive end in the low post is still awful.

I dont know! We might just have to agree to disagree on those ones...
If I'm getting killed down low by the Monroe, the Okafor, the Lopez of the world, I rather have Baynes in my rotation than Amir or Olynyk, for sure! We had Amir and Olynyk last couple of years and we all know way too well what kind of disaster that generated with those type of skilled low post bruisers... But anyhow, I'm sorry I can't change your mind on this if you can't see the obvious!

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Also, I don't care if IT is 5'10" and Kyrie is 6'3", they are both horrible defensively and need to be hidden. By most defensive metrics Irving is actually a worse defender than Thomas.

I agree with you they were both horrible defensively last year but not in the same system and with the same effort level!! Kyrie just didn't care even trying defensively for most of the time, but when he was locked in and bothered make the effort he was miles better than IT who was trying his hardest most of the time but just had too many shortcomings physically... My eye test tells me a focused Kyrie will be better than the overachieving IT in our defensive system.

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And length and athleticism is great but if you don't know how to use it, what good is it. The list of long, athletic guys that are bad defenders is too long to list. Heck when it comes to defense and rebounding its all about desire. Bradley was one of the best rebounders on the team last year but was one of the smallest guys on the court. KO was a guy with awful length and athleticism but turned himself into a good defender.

We had a bunch of overachievers last year that played with heart and grit in a system that fitted them. The reality is Hayward is not a bad defender, Tatum is not a bad defender, Baynes is not a bad defender, Theis is not a bad defender, Semi is not a bad defender, Morris is not a bad defender. So we will be improving defensively thanks to their length and athleticism.

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I think we will have a defense that ranks similar to last year...middle of the pack.

So at least this is closer to my point and far away from those people panicking that we will be one of the WORST defensive team in the league next year. I think we will be very far from that! Glad to realize our views on the matter are in fact closer than I first though reading you earlier.

Re: We are actually a better defensive team!!!
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2017, 03:07:09 PM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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To the OP, in response to your points.

1. We overcame the Bulls largely due to a series-ending injury to Rajon Rondo (who had been killing us in that series) in addition to the elite defensive job Avery Bradley did on Jimmy Butler -  Bradley is now gone.


Lol! So where was Bradley pre-Rondo injury? If he was the answer, why didnt he answered the first 2 games at home...? They was one technical adjustment the coach made. just one! And it worked! Brad Stevens himself acknowledged it. But you guys keep referring to defense. Why didn't the defense composed of Bradley and Crowder notably do anything to help us win those first two games...?? We won thanks to an injury and an OFFENSIVE adjustment! Taking out a defender (in Amir) and putting in an floor spacing offensive threat (in Gerald Green)!! I dont know how i could be the only one seeing this! lol!

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2. We barely overcame the Wizards in a 7 game series because the team played with no heart and no energy in half of those games.  They basically laid down and said "do what you want with me, I won't fight it".  There was a lack of effort on both ends of the court in the games we lost - and the blowout margins were proof of that.

This is besides my point! If last year team was so great defensively they should have been able to rely on it to win the games and maybe close the series earlier! But they relied on offensive outbursts from IT earlier in the series and Olynyk in game 7! Offense saved us here yet again! Not that defense is useless (mind you Beal was killing us and no one was found to stop him, not bradley, not crowder for ***** sake!) but the clear advantage that got us over the hump against the wizards was those offensive outbursts! Again you might not agree but that's what happened! Heart and energy can take you far but without the necessary talent to back it up they will be moments were the overachievers crash back down.... And we upgraded our team talent wise!

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3. We got destroyed by the Cavs because of terrible rebounding (which has gotten worse this year) and because, as with the Washington series, we played with no heart and no effort to start the series.  When IT went down the team seemed to play motivated again (as if they wanted to play harder for him, or were making up for the loss)  and after actually playing with some effort and heart for the first time in the series, Boston actually took a game.

We still have an open roster spot so we could improve our rebounding which is clearly a weakness right now. But lets all agree that last year team was extremely bad in rebounding and still managed to get 1st seed and reach the ECF, so...
I think we got destroyed by a team with a well oiled offensive machine. They were scoring at will against out TOP NOTCH defenders like Crowder and Bradley... Kicking our asses at historical levels in our own building!! Yet some of you will still think we are losing so much in trading our best defenders... I think we are going to improve so much offensively that we will be able to hang with those teams like the cavs and warriors while our defense will be better than last year thanks to better length and athleticism, no IT to hide, and better low post defense.
That one game we took was more Smart offensive OUTBURST than any secret defensive strategy... otherwise why couldn't we use that same "secret defensive strategy" for the other 4 games we lost...?

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4. The Cavs do have a poor defence, you are right.  But they also had Kyrie Irving (one of the best closers in the game) and Lebron James (the best player in the game), and the duo of Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson (one of the best rebounding frontcourts in the NBA).  When you have three offensive superstars on your team who are capable of scoring 70 PPG on their own,  combined with two three frontcourt players who are capable of pulling down around 30 RPG between them, then you can kinda make up for a lack of great defence. 

Unfortunately our top 3 scorers only averaged 60 PPG last year between them, our top 3 rebounding starters only averaged around 17 RPG between them, and our bench is made up almost entirely of young prospects - many of whom have yet to play a single NBA game.  So we cannot get by with a bad defence quite so easily as Cleveland could last year.
Except that now we have Kyrie on OUR team! Plus Hayward! And some good defenders around them... I will take my chance with this year's team!

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5.  You take a Kyrie three over Steph in the finals over any AB defence?  That's interesting, because without AB's defense against Jimmy Butler in Chicago we probably wouldn't make it out of the first round, I which case your Kyrie 3PT in the finals becomes nothing but a pipe dream.

I already covered this in the first point.
AB and Crowder defense was getting killed 0 - 2 on our own building until Rajon got a freak injury and Stevens made an OFFENSIVE adjustment to spread the floor! Offense got us by the Bulls! And Kyrie's shot more than Lebron's block got Cleveland their Banner!

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6. Our defense is not better then last year, don't make me laugh.  Our top six defenders last year were (not in any order) Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Marcus Smart, Amir Johnson, Kelly Olynyk.   We lost four of those six guys.  In return we gained two above average defenders (Morris and Baynes), one average defender (Hayward) and one terrible defender (Kyrie).  The only consolation here is that Kyrie replaces Thomas, who was an even worse defender.  Other then that we are worse on defence - way worse.  Unless Brown and Tatum shock us that is. 
We are better my friend. With better pieces (expect for Bradley and Crowder), with more length and athleticism, with no more hiding IT and with some better low post defense. We will be better defensively than last year's team (that you guys are now OVERRATING)...