Author Topic: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray  (Read 2467 times)

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Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2017, 10:00:14 PM »

Online wayupnorth

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It really is time to bury the hatchet...Geeze, Danny tried trading Ray Allen a bunch of times---No C's fan should hate on Ray.

We waited 22 years to finally win another Championship, now it's been almost another 10--Ray Allen was crucial to Banner 17-!
Because he deserve it, Ainge saw his juda nature and is proved right

Ainge is as much a "Judas" as Ray.

In other words, not at all. They're both businessmen.

Judas to whom? To Ray? Sure.

But you know there's apples here, and some oranges there.
exactly. I hate the comparison of gm to player. The players are the face of the squad, the gm is a back office guy trying to make trades.

So?

Neither player no GM must show "loyalty".

Danny can trade anyone on the team at any time, and he's done so. Antoine, KG, Pierce, Perk, IT. It doesn't matter how much a player has given to a franchise, he's a commodity to be evaluated and potentially traded. Danny doesn't care about emotional bonds, either to players or fans.

Similarly, Ray is allowed to make a cold business decision. He doesn't owe an ounce of loyalty beyond his contractual obligations.

Neither is a "Judas". The guys who demand trades while still under contract? They're the traitors, because they walked out on their obligations.  They signed a contract and refused to honor it in good faith.  But free agents? Wherever they go, it's their right.

Ray is 100% a Judas.


He took a smaller contract to play for a rival, and didn't have the nuts to tell his teammates.

Judas.

This Kyrie trade has got you trippen.

1. Kyrie took less money than he was entitled to to go to a rival;

2. Kyrie refused to talk with his teammates about his trade demand; and

3. Kyrie refused to fulfill his contract, sticking it to fans and teammates in the process.

I guess that portion of it is fair, if I were a Cavs fan, I would hate Kyrie something bad.

I was mainly referring to you comparing Danny and Kyrie, as that is just not a good comparison at all.

But I don't get what you are getting with pointing that out. I don't expect NBA fans on the whole to see him as a Judas, but Celtics fans? He did us dirty, just like Kyrie did the Cavs dirty.

Doesn't make them bad people or anything, but it is what it is.

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2017, 10:10:25 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Quote
The guys who demand trades while still under contract? They're the traitors, because they walked out on their obligations.  They signed a contract and refused to honor it in good faith. 

Have you always felt this way or have you felt this way only since the Kyrie acquisition? Sincere question.

I'm sure I've had a hypocritical moment or two, but I think the only guy I've actively supported after demanding a trade is Alonzo Mourning. Did Barkley demand a trade? I liked him too.

Vince Carter, Carmelo, Starbury, Steve Francis, Dwight Howard... I'm just not a fan of most guys who don't honor contracts.

Other such players include Shaq, Kareem, Wilt...Chris Paul, Jason Kidd...plus a host of other players (like Ray Allen) whose demands (or "requests" if charitable) are handled so quietly we never hear about it.
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Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2017, 10:13:51 PM »

Offline incoherent

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It's entirely pointless to compare Ray and Kyrie for the simple fact that Ray was a Celtic and we had invested feelings in him. 

What Kyrie did he did to the Cavs and why would we care at all what his relationships are with their players or what he did to them.  He is a Celtic now.  I never expected the Heat fans to think Ray was a traitor. 

It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.


Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2017, 10:17:23 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.
"Young man, you have the question backwards." - Bill Russell

"My guess is that an aggregator of expert opinions would be close in terms of results to that of Danny." - Roy H.

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2017, 10:50:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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It really is time to bury the hatchet...Geeze, Danny tried trading Ray Allen a bunch of times---No C's fan should hate on Ray.

We waited 22 years to finally win another Championship, now it's been almost another 10--Ray Allen was crucial to Banner 17-!
Because he deserve it, Ainge saw his juda nature and is proved right

Ainge is as much a "Judas" as Ray.

In other words, not at all. They're both businessmen.

Judas to whom? To Ray? Sure.

But you know there's apples here, and some oranges there.
exactly. I hate the comparison of gm to player. The players are the face of the squad, the gm is a back office guy trying to make trades.

So?

Neither player no GM must show "loyalty".

Danny can trade anyone on the team at any time, and he's done so. Antoine, KG, Pierce, Perk, IT. It doesn't matter how much a player has given to a franchise, he's a commodity to be evaluated and potentially traded. Danny doesn't care about emotional bonds, either to players or fans.

Similarly, Ray is allowed to make a cold business decision. He doesn't owe an ounce of loyalty beyond his contractual obligations.

Neither is a "Judas". The guys who demand trades while still under contract? They're the traitors, because they walked out on their obligations.  They signed a contract and refused to honor it in good faith.  But free agents? Wherever they go, it's their right.

A player's job is to do everything they can to help a team win.  So by quitting on his team and leaving town (be it for money, family reasons, whatever), a player is effectively turning his back on his job and his team for his own personal reasons.

A GM's job is to put the best possible roster on the floor so as to maximise his team's ability to win.  By trading away an existing player for a better / more suitable player, he is doing his job. 

That's the difference. 

That's not to say that a player shouldn't have the right to leave and fulfil their personal wishes  just outlining why the two scenarios are seen differently by fans.  In one case, the player is turning his back on the team for the franchise it's fans, it's city.  In the other scenario the GM is trying to make moves to put a better team on the court for the franchise, it's fans, it's city. 

One of these moves benefits the team,/fans/city while the other dos not, so of course the fans are going to see them differently.   

As a fan, this is how many will see it.  When you are here, and you are playing through a shooting funk, or struggling with an injury, we still support you.  We are still there for you.  We are still here as your fans. That's loyalty.  But when your situation on the team isn't perfect, you just get up and leave and bail on the fans - that's not loyalty.

The difference is that for a player, basketball is a job.  It affects their personal life to a dramatic degree.  For us as fans, much as we may like to believe otherwise, the success of our franchise really has very little (more likely no) tangible impact on our personal lives - so it's all a bit irrational.

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2017, 10:52:26 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2017, 10:59:38 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.

What Kyrie did wasn't cheating though.

Cheating would be more the equivalent of what Lebron did when he left for Miami.  He insisted to all the Heat fans and to the Heat front office that he was 100% loyal and devoted to them, while in the background he was secretly playing around with Bosh and Wade, plotting about how he was going to dump the Cavs and get with them in Miami.  He's the man who just cheated on his wife, and then dumped her later down the line for the girl he was cheating with. 

By comparison, Kyrie neve cheated on the Cavs.  He was loyal to them, but he was starting to feel that the relationship was losing it's spark.  Then when he started to see indications that he and the Cavs may not be aligned in their relationship goals.  Then finally he found out the Cavs were secretly flirting with other guys in the background, which was pretty much the final straw - so at this point he decided to speak to them in private and respectfully tell them that he felt the relationship was no longer working for him, and he wanted to move on.  It was a respectful breakup though.

On the case of Ray it was more like the Kyrie situation then the Lebron one (more a breakup rather than cheating), but instead of holding a respectful discussion with his GF about breaking up...Ray pretty much just left his woman out of nowhere, let her know via an SMS message, and then proceeded to post all over Facebook telling everybody he knew what a bad lover she was. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 11:04:53 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2017, 11:02:49 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.

What Kyrie did wasn't cheating though.

Cheating would be more the equivalent of what Lebron did when he left for Miami.  He insisted to all the Heat fans and to the Heat front office that he was 100% loyal and devoted to them, while in the background he was secretly speaking with Bosh and Wade, plotting about how he was going to join forces with them in Miami.  He's the man who just cheated on his wife, and then dumped her later down the line, 

By comparison, Kyrie neve cheated on the Cavs.  He was loyal to them, but he was starting to feel that the relationship was losing it's spark.  Then when he found out the Cavs were secretly flirting with other guys in the background, he decided to speak to them in private and tell them that he decided the relationship was no longer working for him, and he wanted to move on.  It was a respectful breakup though.

On the case of Ray it was more like the Kyrie situation then the Lebron one (more a breakup rather than cheating), but instead of holding a respectful discussion with his GF about breaking up...Ray pretty much just left his woman out of nowhere, let her know via an SMS message, and then proceeded to post all over Facebook telling everybody he knew what a bad lover she was.

I'm not sure what I agree with, but TP for a great analogy on a sports blog. 
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2017, 11:29:43 PM »

Offline incoherent

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.

Did you expect Heat fans to think Ray was a traitor? Do you expect Celtics fans to think Kyrie is a traitor?

No, both ideas are kind of silly. Ray didnt do anything to the Heat fans, and Kyrie didnt do anything to the Celtics fans. 

To compare them in a way that "If you think this about Ray then you must think this also about Kyrie" is complete nonsense.


Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2017, 12:01:59 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.

Did you expect Heat fans to think Ray was a traitor? Do you expect Celtics fans to think Kyrie is a traitor?

No, both ideas are kind of silly. Ray didnt do anything to the Heat fans, and Kyrie didnt do anything to the Celtics fans. 

To compare them in a way that "If you think this about Ray then you must think this also about Kyrie" is complete nonsense.

Ray left on his own accord after being dangled in trade discussions.  The way he left (with respect to his teammates, not Ainge; team; salary) was crummy, but it wasn't dirty.

"Kyrie didn't do anything to Celtics fans"... I don't know what you're referencing there.  He threatened to not report to camp if his team didn't trade him to greener pastures -- he screwed over CLE fans, if they exist. 

You strike me as the type that appreciates a winning franchise, but doesn't get too involved in the players on the team.  Is that fair to say?  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.   

I just prefer to root for guys that are authentic, team-oriented, tough, and not full of crap.  Forgive me for having such high standards. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y17cW31ESmg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz5PpDFD8RQ&t=754s

« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:07:36 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2017, 02:41:01 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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It's perfectly fine as a fan to shun Ray and accept Kyrie even though what they did was similar.  It's not like I'm mad at my wife for breaking up with her last boyfriend. She's mine now.  Kyrie is ours now.

That's a top-shelf analogy. TP.

Actually, it completely misses the most important component (disloyalty) that Roy captured above. 

More accurately, "I won't assume my girlfriend is going to cheat on me just because she cheated on her last boyfriend," which is obviously a dumb choice.  Maybe it'll work out for Kyrie, though, given the silver spoon in his mouth.

But dat pass, tho ;) :laugh:.

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2017, 08:10:15 AM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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It really is time to bury the hatchet...Geeze, Danny tried trading Ray Allen a bunch of times---No C's fan should hate on Ray.

We waited 22 years to finally win another Championship, now it's been almost another 10--Ray Allen was crucial to Banner 17-!
Because he deserve it, Ainge saw his juda nature and is proved right

Ainge is as much a "Judas" as Ray.

In other words, not at all. They're both businessmen.

Judas to whom? To Ray? Sure.

But you know there's apples here, and some oranges there.
exactly. I hate the comparison of gm to player. The players are the face of the squad, the gm is a back office guy trying to make trades.

So?

Neither player no GM must show "loyalty".

Danny can trade anyone on the team at any time, and he's done so. Antoine, KG, Pierce, Perk, IT. It doesn't matter how much a player has given to a franchise, he's a commodity to be evaluated and potentially traded. Danny doesn't care about emotional bonds, either to players or fans.

Similarly, Ray is allowed to make a cold business decision. He doesn't owe an ounce of loyalty beyond his contractual obligations.

Neither is a "Judas". The guys who demand trades while still under contract? They're the traitors, because they walked out on their obligations.  They signed a contract and refused to honor it in good faith.  But free agents? Wherever they go, it's their right.

Nothing you said here absolves Ray Allen from being a traitor to the Celtics fanbase. Nothing.

You can talk about "their right" about "honoring contracts", etc., etc. but none of that has anything to do with CHOOSING to go to your current closest rival. Nothing. And that by its lonesome, regardless of any context you want to apply to the situation, absolves Ray Allen from being a traitor to the Celtics fanbase.

Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2017, 08:37:52 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I think the players should be the ones to get past it. I don't see a reason why fans need to.

ray left to go to the rival when we were both at the top. that crap don't fly.

I loved ray for the time he was here and hate him for his time in Miami.
Both at the top?  Boston was done.  It was over. 
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Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2017, 08:44:15 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Since it's a business, I don't see why demanding a trade doesn't fall within the bounds of business options for players. The team can just refuse the demand and not trade the player. The player then either refuses to play or he plays. Or the team accepts the demand and makes the trade. Simple.

Part of legitimate business is honoring contracts.
That just isn't true.  Sometimes the best business decision is breaking a contract.  As long as you pay for the consequences it is a perfectly legitimate business practice.  Similar to bankruptcy and any number of other tactics to avoid doing something legally. 
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Re: The Truth posts picture on Instagram with Ray
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2017, 08:49:33 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Since it's a business, I don't see why demanding a trade doesn't fall within the bounds of business options for players. The team can just refuse the demand and not trade the player. The player then either refuses to play or he plays. Or the team accepts the demand and makes the trade. Simple.

Part of legitimate business is honoring contracts.
That just isn't true.  Sometimes the best business decision is breaking a contract.  As long as you pay for the consequences it is a perfectly legitimate business practice.  Similar to bankruptcy and any number of other tactics to avoid doing something legally.

"Paying for the consequences" meaning damages, attorneys fees, loss of reputation, etc.  In other words, the business version of a "Judas".


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