Author Topic: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?  (Read 976 times)

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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 03:20:07 PM »

Offline byennie

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I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.




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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 03:33:20 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Bennett was pretty bad, but otherwise they haven't done that poorly of late.  I mean they did manage to get Irving and Thompson in the same draft, Waiters seems like he is finally reaching his potential down in Miami, Zeller was a solid pick for outside the lottery, Wiggins was the right pick (though Embiid may ultimately end up better), and even some of their 2nd round picks have made the league (like Danny Green and Joe Harris)
Joe Harris is a success as the 33rd pick in the draft because he averages 5 points for his career? From that second round around him Jokic, Glenn Robinson, Jordan Clarkson, Dwight Powell, Jerami Grant, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jarnell Stokes, KJ McDaniels were all players that were drafted right aaround him and are still playing along (some with more significant roles) Pretty faint praise to call that a success. 
That was obviously a pretty deep draft, but yeah a 2nd round pick coming off his 3rd season averaging 22 mpg and 8 ppg and 3 rpg is a good pick.  Obviously Jokic was a monster, but aside from him it could reasonably be argued that Harris had the best year of all those players last year.  So yeah, he was a good pick. 

Also is Thompson that great a pick? All stars Kemba Walker, Kawaii Leonard and Klay Thompson were all taken in the 11 picks after him. Valuncinas and Vucevic are pretty similar players taken afterwards. He is ok, but definitely not a huge nailed pick for the 4th pick in the draft.
Thompson is an interesting pick.  He has clearly been better than Williams and Kanter taken at 2 and 3.  He has been comparable to Valanciunas who went 5th and has been far better than 6-8 (Vesely, Biyombo, Knight).  Obviously Walker, Thompson, and Leonard are all better, but in re-draft Thompson might very well go 5th, which makes him at the very least a decent pick. 

Also not sure how to count some of their picks because it is unclear if they were drafted for other teams but these are actual guys drafted in the first round by their team since Lebron: Christian Eyenga, Luke Jackson (lottery), Tyus Jones, Sergey Karasev, Jared Cunningham.
Jackson was a long time ago, like 10 Cavs regimes ago.  Eyenga is a weird one because he kept going back to Europe, including during the lockout, but the Cavs ended trading him with Sessions and picked up a 1st round pick and the right to swap 1st rounders.  Cavs dumped Karasev in the trade that brought Zeller to Boston so they could sign James.  Hard to make much of that, but yeah that was a bad pick.  Cavs didn't draft Cunningham or Jones.  Cunningham was part of the Zeller trade.  They traded the Jones pick for 3 second rounders including Cedi Osman who they just brought over this summer. 

Sure Irving and Wiggins were nice picks, but they were also consensus number 1 picks so hard to call that out as amazing. Obviously getting one of the worst players in the entire draft with the first overall pick is so bad it is difficult to make sense of. Worse some of the few guys they did draft in second round were traded quickly before experiencing success elsewhere (Crabbe, Crowder and Green waived after one season).
Wiggins wasn't quite a consensus #1 pick.  There was much debate about Wiggins, Parker, and Embiid.  Most pushed Embiid back because of the injuries, but plenty of mocks had Parker going 1.  Sure Wiggins was the guy the majority had at 1, but it certainly wasn't a no brainer.  Irving was the consensus #1.  I'm not sure they actually drafted Crabbe as there was some weird trading with that pick.  They didn't draft Crowder, he was in the Zeller trade as well.  No idea why they waived Green, but I'm sure it was just a roster crunch type thing as it was right before the season started. 

If the Celtics had done the same picks as Cleveland the last 15 years there would be at least twice as many fire Danny Ainge threads. We have raked Danny over the coals for Fab Melo, James Young and Jr Giddens in the last decade or so but he has at least gotten some solid contributions from his late first's for an extended period. Have the Cavs even had anyone as good as Avery Bradley that stayed with their team that was not a top 5 pick?
probably not, but a lot of that is mostly they just flat out have traded a lot of picks or either been very terrible (and thus pick in the top 5) or very good (and thus pick at the end of the 1st round where finding diamonds in the rough is that much harder).  I think Zeller is about the only fairly recent 1st rounder they've had that was in the middle of the 1st round (they had to trade to get him as well).  He isn't Bradley, but he has been solid value for that pick range.

I am kind of confused how you have Tristan Thompson going 5th in a redraft. He would clearly be behind all-stars Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Isiah Thomas and Kawaii Leonard. He probably goes behind Vucevic for most people (15 pts, 10.5 rebounds last year) Valuncinas is also probably a little bit better too. Depending on team need the Morris Twins, Reggie Jackson, Faried and Tobias Harris are all in the conversation also.

It would be tough to see him going higher than 8th or 9th in a redraft. Again I am not saying he is awful but missing out on 3 all-stars that were taken pretty closely after him including guys like Thompson and Leonard making all-nba teams and it is hard to call it a success.

Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 03:34:05 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Wow. He was on a good euro team last year but hardly played and was released. Ouch. Off to China I suppose.
Cleveland is garbage at drafting. Makes you think what they'll do with that nets pick, probably get Bennett 2.0 lol
Bennett was pretty bad, but otherwise they haven't done that poorly of late.  I mean they did manage to get Irving and Thompson in the same draft, Waiters seems like he is finally reaching his potential down in Miami, Zeller was a solid pick for outside the lottery, Wiggins was the right pick (though Embiid may ultimately end up better), and even some of their 2nd round picks have made the league (like Danny Green and Joe Harris)



 Joe Harris is a success as the 33rd pick in the draft because he averages 5 points for his career? From that second round around him Jokic, Glenn Robinson, Jordan Clarkson, Dwight Powell, Jerami Grant, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jarnell Stokes, KJ McDaniels were all players that were drafted right after him and are still playing along (some with more significant roles) Pretty faint praise to call that a success. 


Also is Thompson that great a pick? All stars Kemba Walker, Kawaii Leonard and Klay Thompson were all taken in the 11 picks after him. Valuncinas and Vucevic are pretty similar players taken afterwards. He is ok, but definitely not a huge nailed pick for the 4th pick in the draft.

Also not sure how to count some of their picks because it is unclear if they were drafted for other teams but these are actual guys drafted in the first round by their team since Lebron: Christian Eyenga, Luke Jackson (lottery), Tyus Jones, Sergey Karasev, Jared Cunningham.

Sure Irving and Wiggins were nice picks, but they were also consensus number 1 picks so hard to call that out as amazing. Worse some of the few guys they did draft in second round were traded quickly before experiencing success elsewhere (Crabbe, Crowder and Green waived after one season).

If the Celtics had done the same picks as Cleveland the last 15 years there would be at least twice as many fire Danny Ainge threads. We have raked Danny over the coals for Fab Melo, James Young and Jr Giddens in the last decade or so but he has at least gotten some solid contributions from his late first's for an extended period. Have the Cavs even had anyone as good as Avery Bradley that stayed with their team that was not a top 5 pick?

Sorry for jumping in, but yes. Any player from the second round who stays in the League after 3 years is a good pick.

I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.
impressive is in the eye of the beholder.

my suggestion is to look at those picks who were in the very late 20s that year and those who follows? stats show that less than 25% player from that range stay in the nba. so, yes, given the standard for the second round, being in the nba after 3 years is an accomplishment that surpasses many other similar picks.
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 03:40:13 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

We are now have two different arguments.

The first is whether Joe Harris was a big success. You can only compare him to the 10 guys drafted him around him to make this point cause those are the players that were available. The top 10 featured 7 or 8 guys that played 3 years in the NBA. Several of them are clearly better than Harris (who lets be honest, isn't making a lot of rosters in the NBA).

The second argument is the overall value of the second round players. As I have repeatedly said I agree that on the whole, second round picks making the NBA and playing a few years is a big accomplishment. However, I have also pointed out that players drafted in the first ten spots of the second round do much better than the rest of the second round. In many cases half of these guys were projected to go in the first round. A guy taken 33, 34 or 35 that hangs around in league for a few years as a fringe NBA player is really not abnormal at all. This is pretty basic stuff and I have already included a ton of example. I am a bit confused people debating this.


Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 04:24:03 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Bennett was pretty bad, but otherwise they haven't done that poorly of late.  I mean they did manage to get Irving and Thompson in the same draft, Waiters seems like he is finally reaching his potential down in Miami, Zeller was a solid pick for outside the lottery, Wiggins was the right pick (though Embiid may ultimately end up better), and even some of their 2nd round picks have made the league (like Danny Green and Joe Harris)
Joe Harris is a success as the 33rd pick in the draft because he averages 5 points for his career? From that second round around him Jokic, Glenn Robinson, Jordan Clarkson, Dwight Powell, Jerami Grant, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jarnell Stokes, KJ McDaniels were all players that were drafted right aaround him and are still playing along (some with more significant roles) Pretty faint praise to call that a success. 
That was obviously a pretty deep draft, but yeah a 2nd round pick coming off his 3rd season averaging 22 mpg and 8 ppg and 3 rpg is a good pick.  Obviously Jokic was a monster, but aside from him it could reasonably be argued that Harris had the best year of all those players last year.  So yeah, he was a good pick. 

Also is Thompson that great a pick? All stars Kemba Walker, Kawaii Leonard and Klay Thompson were all taken in the 11 picks after him. Valuncinas and Vucevic are pretty similar players taken afterwards. He is ok, but definitely not a huge nailed pick for the 4th pick in the draft.
Thompson is an interesting pick.  He has clearly been better than Williams and Kanter taken at 2 and 3.  He has been comparable to Valanciunas who went 5th and has been far better than 6-8 (Vesely, Biyombo, Knight).  Obviously Walker, Thompson, and Leonard are all better, but in re-draft Thompson might very well go 5th, which makes him at the very least a decent pick. 

Also not sure how to count some of their picks because it is unclear if they were drafted for other teams but these are actual guys drafted in the first round by their team since Lebron: Christian Eyenga, Luke Jackson (lottery), Tyus Jones, Sergey Karasev, Jared Cunningham.
Jackson was a long time ago, like 10 Cavs regimes ago.  Eyenga is a weird one because he kept going back to Europe, including during the lockout, but the Cavs ended trading him with Sessions and picked up a 1st round pick and the right to swap 1st rounders.  Cavs dumped Karasev in the trade that brought Zeller to Boston so they could sign James.  Hard to make much of that, but yeah that was a bad pick.  Cavs didn't draft Cunningham or Jones.  Cunningham was part of the Zeller trade.  They traded the Jones pick for 3 second rounders including Cedi Osman who they just brought over this summer. 

Sure Irving and Wiggins were nice picks, but they were also consensus number 1 picks so hard to call that out as amazing. Obviously getting one of the worst players in the entire draft with the first overall pick is so bad it is difficult to make sense of. Worse some of the few guys they did draft in second round were traded quickly before experiencing success elsewhere (Crabbe, Crowder and Green waived after one season).
Wiggins wasn't quite a consensus #1 pick.  There was much debate about Wiggins, Parker, and Embiid.  Most pushed Embiid back because of the injuries, but plenty of mocks had Parker going 1.  Sure Wiggins was the guy the majority had at 1, but it certainly wasn't a no brainer.  Irving was the consensus #1.  I'm not sure they actually drafted Crabbe as there was some weird trading with that pick.  They didn't draft Crowder, he was in the Zeller trade as well.  No idea why they waived Green, but I'm sure it was just a roster crunch type thing as it was right before the season started. 

If the Celtics had done the same picks as Cleveland the last 15 years there would be at least twice as many fire Danny Ainge threads. We have raked Danny over the coals for Fab Melo, James Young and Jr Giddens in the last decade or so but he has at least gotten some solid contributions from his late first's for an extended period. Have the Cavs even had anyone as good as Avery Bradley that stayed with their team that was not a top 5 pick?
probably not, but a lot of that is mostly they just flat out have traded a lot of picks or either been very terrible (and thus pick in the top 5) or very good (and thus pick at the end of the 1st round where finding diamonds in the rough is that much harder).  I think Zeller is about the only fairly recent 1st rounder they've had that was in the middle of the 1st round (they had to trade to get him as well).  He isn't Bradley, but he has been solid value for that pick range.

I am kind of confused how you have Tristan Thompson going 5th in a redraft. He would clearly be behind all-stars Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Isiah Thomas and Kawaii Leonard. He probably goes behind Vucevic for most people (15 pts, 10.5 rebounds last year) Valuncinas is also probably a little bit better too. Depending on team need the Morris Twins, Reggie Jackson, Faried and Tobias Harris are all in the conversation also.

It would be tough to see him going higher than 8th or 9th in a redraft. Again I am not saying he is awful but missing out on 3 all-stars that were taken pretty closely after him including guys like Thompson and Leonard making all-nba teams and it is hard to call it a success.
I didn't look past Leonard, you are correct, he obviously goes behind Butler and Thomas as well. 
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 04:34:09 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

We are now have two different arguments.

The first is whether Joe Harris was a big success. You can only compare him to the 10 guys drafted him around him to make this point cause those are the players that were available. The top 10 featured 7 or 8 guys that played 3 years in the NBA. Several of them are clearly better than Harris (who lets be honest, isn't making a lot of rosters in the NBA).

The second argument is the overall value of the second round players. As I have repeatedly said I agree that on the whole, second round picks making the NBA and playing a few years is a big accomplishment. However, I have also pointed out that players drafted in the first ten spots of the second round do much better than the rest of the second round. In many cases half of these guys were projected to go in the first round. A guy taken 33, 34 or 35 that hangs around in league for a few years as a fringe NBA player is really not abnormal at all. This is pretty basic stuff and I have already included a ton of example. I am a bit confused people debating this.
to be fair, you are the one that claimed he was a success in the post of mine you responded to.  I never actually said that at all.  The gist of my post was basically aside from Bennett the Cavs haven't done that poorly of late in their drafting.  I then closed by saying that some of their 2nd round picks have made the league.  Again no use of the word success. 

That said, I think Joe Harris was absolutely a successful pick.  The fact that he even made the Cavs for two consecutive seasons has to be a success given those two seasons the Cavs were the runner-up and champion of the league.  He then went to a bad team where he played 22 mpg averaging 8 ppg and 3 rpg.  Not bad at all for a 2nd round pick. 
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 05:06:28 PM »

Offline byennie

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We are now have two different arguments.

The first is whether Joe Harris was a big success. You can only compare him to the 10 guys drafted him around him to make this point cause those are the players that were available. The top 10 featured 7 or 8 guys that played 3 years in the NBA. Several of them are clearly better than Harris (who lets be honest, isn't making a lot of rosters in the NBA).

The second argument is the overall value of the second round players. As I have repeatedly said I agree that on the whole, second round picks making the NBA and playing a few years is a big accomplishment. However, I have also pointed out that players drafted in the first ten spots of the second round do much better than the rest of the second round. In many cases half of these guys were projected to go in the first round. A guy taken 33, 34 or 35 that hangs around in league for a few years as a fringe NBA player is really not abnormal at all. This is pretty basic stuff and I have already included a ton of example. I am a bit confused people debating this.

The whole Joe Harris thing is pretty irrelevant, really. He was neither a great pick nor a bad one... pretty much par for the course +/- a little bit. Cleveland got nothing out of him... BKN got 20mpg last year and he shot pretty well.

The idea that you can only judge him by the 10 players around him isn't quite right, nor that a bunch of those guys were clearly better. You are cherry picking a bit. Guys like Josh Huestis, CJ Wilcox, Shabazz Napier, Jordan Adams were no better and got 1st round contracts. PJ Hairston was horrible. Exum & Vonleh have done nothing useful except get playing time due to draft status. Caboclo- nothing. James Young- nothing. Inglis, nothing yet. Ennis? And those are just guys drafted AHEAD of Harris.

What's the value of a marginal role player just because some guys ahead were even worse? That I don't know =).
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 05:30:52 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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We are now have two different arguments.

The first is whether Joe Harris was a big success. You can only compare him to the 10 guys drafted him around him to make this point cause those are the players that were available. The top 10 featured 7 or 8 guys that played 3 years in the NBA. Several of them are clearly better than Harris (who lets be honest, isn't making a lot of rosters in the NBA).

The second argument is the overall value of the second round players. As I have repeatedly said I agree that on the whole, second round picks making the NBA and playing a few years is a big accomplishment. However, I have also pointed out that players drafted in the first ten spots of the second round do much better than the rest of the second round. In many cases half of these guys were projected to go in the first round. A guy taken 33, 34 or 35 that hangs around in league for a few years as a fringe NBA player is really not abnormal at all. This is pretty basic stuff and I have already included a ton of example. I am a bit confused people debating this.

The whole Joe Harris thing is pretty irrelevant, really. He was neither a great pick nor a bad one... pretty much par for the course +/- a little bit. Cleveland got nothing out of him... BKN got 20mpg last year and he shot pretty well.

The idea that you can only judge him by the 10 players around him isn't quite right, nor that a bunch of those guys were clearly better. You are cherry picking a bit. Guys like Josh Huestis, CJ Wilcox, Shabazz Napier, Jordan Adams were no better and got 1st round contracts. PJ Hairston was horrible. Exum & Vonleh have done nothing useful except get playing time due to draft status. Caboclo- nothing. James Young- nothing. Inglis, nothing yet. Ennis? And those are just guys drafted AHEAD of Harris.

What's the value of a marginal role player just because some guys ahead were even worse? That I don't know =).

I feel like you keep kind of muddling the argument. The main point I have made is that not all second rounders are created equal. Guys drafted 50-60 are a lot different animal than players drafted in the top 10 of the second round. I get excited by some of the players the Celtics could draft in the 30's most year including (Semi Ojeleye is a prime example of this). A lot of these guys are players are people that most had projected for the first round. The idea that an early second round pick being a fringe player on a bad team is very unusual is just not true (which I guess you are acknowledging int he first part of your post).

 For players drafted in that range playing for 3-5 years is hardly a rarity. Joe Harris was drafted 33rd and has been a fringe NBA player. If he didn't sign on with a terrible Brooklyn Nets team he may be playing in Europe right now. I doubt he gets many minutes this year with Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Lavert all getting minutes at guard spots. I am not sure if is even better than Sean Kilpatrick and Dinwiddie. If they nets make some moves he could get cut... Let's stop the madness on this...



Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 05:41:19 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

I don't really think it is that impressive, especially for a deeper draft than some years. If you look at the first 10 picks of that second round all of them except 2 were playing in the NBA last year https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2014.html


Sorry that is not impressive.

2014 was an unusually good 2nd round. That draft was 40+ players deep. There are exactly 9/30 guys who have played 3 years in the NBA, plus a couple of euros... and really 4/30 are average or better players who would even make our roster, if we include Jerami Grant.

Then there's 2013.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2013.html

That year produced a whopping 1 starter (Crabbe - 1st pick of the round) and 6 so-so bench players (Canaan, Withey, Muscala, Kelly, Lauvergne, Ennis).

The undeniable truth is that 60-80% of 2nd rounders wash out of the league with 5 years, and the majority of those that make it are bench players. There is no GM out there who is bucking this trend on any regular basis or has a magic formula for 2nd round picks. None. All of the high-chance-to-have-a-long-NBA-career guys are gone in the first 20 picks.

We are now have two different arguments.

The first is whether Joe Harris was a big success. You can only compare him to the 10 guys drafted him around him to make this point cause those are the players that were available. The top 10 featured 7 or 8 guys that played 3 years in the NBA. Several of them are clearly better than Harris (who lets be honest, isn't making a lot of rosters in the NBA).

The second argument is the overall value of the second round players. As I have repeatedly said I agree that on the whole, second round picks making the NBA and playing a few years is a big accomplishment. However, I have also pointed out that players drafted in the first ten spots of the second round do much better than the rest of the second round. In many cases half of these guys were projected to go in the first round. A guy taken 33, 34 or 35 that hangs around in league for a few years as a fringe NBA player is really not abnormal at all. This is pretty basic stuff and I have already included a ton of example. I am a bit confused people debating this.
to be fair, you are the one that claimed he was a success in the post of mine you responded to.  I never actually said that at all.  The gist of my post was basically aside from Bennett the Cavs haven't done that poorly of late in their drafting.  I then closed by saying that some of their 2nd round picks have made the league.  Again no use of the word success. 

That said, I think Joe Harris was absolutely a successful pick.  The fact that he even made the Cavs for two consecutive seasons has to be a success given those two seasons the Cavs were the runner-up and champion of the league.  He then went to a bad team where he played 22 mpg averaging 8 ppg and 3 rpg.  Not bad at all for a 2nd round pick.

Got to ask this Moranis. His entire second year in Cleveland Harris scored 3 points and had 2 assists. Not per game. The entire season. You are considering this a success merely because he didn't cut from the Cavs having a Roster Crunch like they did this past offseason? By this logic Jordan Mickey is a huge success for us. I don't think any of us are calling Jordan Mickey a success.

Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 06:26:22 PM »

Offline byennie

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I feel like you keep kind of muddling the argument. The main point I have made is that not all second rounders are created equal. Guys drafted 50-60 are a lot different animal than players drafted in the top 10 of the second round. I get excited by some of the players the Celtics could draft in the 30's most year including (Semi Ojeleye is a prime example of this). A lot of these guys are players are people that most had projected for the first round. The idea that an early second round pick being a fringe player on a bad team is very unusual is just not true (which I guess you are acknowledging int he first part of your post).

 For players drafted in that range playing for 3-5 years is hardly a rarity. Joe Harris was drafted 33rd and has been a fringe NBA player. If he didn't sign on with a terrible Brooklyn Nets team he may be playing in Europe right now. I doubt he gets many minutes this year with Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Lavert all getting minutes at guard spots. I am not sure if is even better than Sean Kilpatrick and Dinwiddie. If they nets make some moves he could get cut... Let's stop the madness on this...

I don't know why you keep trying to prove points about early 2nd rounders. You seem to be arguing against a straw man who thinks Joe Harris is really good, since the beginning of this thread. Someone literally pointed out that he "made the league" as a minor point about Cleveland's drafting ability, and you dove right in with "Joe Harris is a success as the 33rd pick in the draft because he averages 5 points for his career?" and starting naming 2nd round success stories.

Everyone gets it. Joe Harris is not real special for a 33rd pick. He's also perfectly good value, and was a perfectly good example the first time he was mentioned in this thread.
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 06:52:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I feel like you keep kind of muddling the argument. The main point I have made is that not all second rounders are created equal. Guys drafted 50-60 are a lot different animal than players drafted in the top 10 of the second round. I get excited by some of the players the Celtics could draft in the 30's most year including (Semi Ojeleye is a prime example of this). A lot of these guys are players are people that most had projected for the first round. The idea that an early second round pick being a fringe player on a bad team is very unusual is just not true (which I guess you are acknowledging int he first part of your post).

 For players drafted in that range playing for 3-5 years is hardly a rarity. Joe Harris was drafted 33rd and has been a fringe NBA player. If he didn't sign on with a terrible Brooklyn Nets team he may be playing in Europe right now. I doubt he gets many minutes this year with Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Lavert all getting minutes at guard spots. I am not sure if is even better than Sean Kilpatrick and Dinwiddie. If they nets make some moves he could get cut... Let's stop the madness on this...

I don't know why you keep trying to prove points about early 2nd rounders. You seem to be arguing against a straw man who thinks Joe Harris is really good, since the beginning of this thread. Someone literally pointed out that he "made the league" as a minor point about Cleveland's drafting ability, and you dove right in with "Joe Harris is a success as the 33rd pick in the draft because he averages 5 points for his career?" and starting naming 2nd round success stories.

Everyone gets it. Joe Harris is not real special for a 33rd pick. He's also perfectly good value, and was a perfectly good example the first time he was mentioned in this thread.

I feel like i am being pretty clear so not sure what is going on. The user Greece than said that any second rounder that sticks in the league for 3 years is a good pick. I fully disagree with that statement and think that you expect a guy you draft very early in the second round (top 10 picks) to stick around for 3 years between the pro club and dleague. Do you disagree with this?

 I then pointed out that in this particular draft 8 of the 11 guys picked at the top of the second round were still in the league last year (3rd year). Do you disagree with this?

I then pointed out there is a huge difference between guys that are picked 30-40 compared to guys going 50-60. Do you disagree with this?

You have already said "Joe Harris is not real special for a 33rd pick" so it seems you have agreed with me but keep arguing about stuff and I honestly can't tell what point you are arguing.


Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 07:33:45 PM »

Offline byennie

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I feel like i am being pretty clear so not sure what is going on. The user Greece than said that any second rounder that sticks in the league for 3 years is a good pick. I fully disagree with that statement and think that you expect a guy you draft very early in the second round (top 10 picks) to stick around for 3 years between the pro club and dleague. Do you disagree with this?

By that metric, it's pretty much a coin flip. About 50% of the guys in the 31-40 range ever play 2000 minutes (total) in their NBA career. Total washouts. So, Joe's contribution last year is above average already, even for the early 2nd round. Nobody is expecting or not expecting that, because it's not a metric anyone uses. But, if the guy is around after 3 years and played 1000+ minutes last year, you're at least a little ahead.

I then pointed out that in this particular draft 8 of the 11 guys picked at the top of the second round were still in the league last year (3rd year). Do you disagree with this?

Out of the 14 other guys picked 26-40 in 2014, only 6 of them have played more NBA minutes than Joe Harris, and two of those guys played for Philadelphia which had by far the worst roster in the league. About half of them have played themselves out of the league. Your 8 of 11 is meaningless because there is no value in being Glen Robinson III or Johnny O'Bryant over Joe Harris, and there are numerous worst cases picked BEFORE him. Only 2 out of 14 of those guys played any useful minutes last year like Harris did.

I then pointed out there is a huge difference between guys that are picked 30-40 compared to guys going 50-60. Do you disagree with this?

Of course not. Everyone agrees with that.

You have already said "Joe Harris is not real special for a 33rd pick" so it seems you have agreed with me but keep arguing about stuff and I honestly can't tell what point you are arguing.

Nope, I don't agree with your premise, which is that Joe Harris wasn't a "good" pick, and I don't know why you started a debate out of nothing in the first place. See above.
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 07:50:00 PM »

Offline byennie

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TL;DR;

Joe Harris was selected 33rd. He's about the 25th best player from that draft. His best year was last year. Somebody qualified that as a "good" pick. Seems reasonable enough.
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Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 08:07:02 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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It's pretty meaningless to evaluate CLE's recent draft history when they the #1 overall pick 3 times in a 4 year span.  Can't really goof that up (although ironically, they did). 
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Anthony Bennett: Where are they now?
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2017, 08:17:49 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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https://youtu.be/YpH_mLrgH4w

Last time he was in the nba, he got waived from nets team d league team. That's how bad he is

lol I still remember only 2 or 3 seasons ago some people were insisting that we should sign him to a 2-3 year contract, so certain that he would snap back and break out.

He's definitely up there as one of the worst #1 picks in NBA history.

Greg Oden failed due to injury, but the talent was undeniably there - you can't blame Portland for that.  Kwame Brown was mocked, but he did at least remain a pretty solid role player in the league for a good decade or so.  Darko Milicic is another mocked for how high he was chosen, but again he was actually a pretty solid role player and AFAIK is still playing pro ball in Europe. 

But Bennet, man...when you can't even hold down a role on the D-League affiliate of the worst team in the entire league...that's bad.